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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Secondary School that doesn't set: any experience?

445 replies

Tomatillo · 05/10/2017 22:29

I was at an open day for our catchment secondary this week and was surprised to find out that they have just moved to a system where there is no setting at all for any subject in any year. Has anyone had experience of this? Does it work, especially for the brightest?

The teacher who is leading this at the school said that the research showed that only the top 10% benefitted from setting and that removing setting was neutral for the middle band and beneficial for the bottom half. They also talked about the benefits for self-esteem, behaviour and teacher expectations. Assuming this is all correct (I've not yet looked it up in detail) then I can completely see why a comprehensive school (which this is) would want to do this for the benefit of everyone. The difficulty is that we're pretty sure that DD is well within the top 10% for the core academic subjects. Whilst I appreciate that things can change at secondary, her primary have made it very clear that they consider her to be exceptionally able. My own schooling was very heavily set, with sets for almost everything and quite finely graded with 12 levels for maths. This meant that we progressed very fast and I've always thought that helped me go from my very average comp to a 1st at Cambridge. I'm pretty concerned that she'll be disadvantaged if she goes to this school. I asked the teacher about the top students and they essentially said that there were issues for the top group and they appreciated our concerns.

Does anyone have any experience of this? At the moment we are feeling that it would be the wrong decision for her.

Thanks!

OP posts:
Lurkedforever1 · 08/10/2017 11:58

cant I don't think it should be changed for the tiny minority, but I do think that there should be more training/acknowledgement of the fact it isn't set in stone. Since mastery was introduced there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding, eg that dc must never go outside age expectancy and that it is always possible to stretch the most able within a topic.

I've always been happy with the fact dd didn't get the same teaching time as other kids, and that mainly her work was about having some challenge rather than learning new skills. Didn't and wouldn't bother me if she even read or did something unrelated during a lesson. But the idea of mastery of a class topic without going outside the primary nc for that age would have horrified me.

In class maths lessons at her primary she and the child from the other far end both sat together, doing their own work with other childs 1-1. Win/win for both, other dc didn't feel bad about being behind dd, like she might if she was sat with a bottom group and still a long way behind them, dd didn't get chance to compare herself to others like she might if she sat with a table of l6 kids and was still a long way ahead. And if dd was occasionally distracted by her friend it made no odds to her, if anything it helped concentration. And of course both had company they wouldn't get if they'd just been removed individually for every maths lesson.

Done that way it was brilliant, and far better than fixed sets, but only because they were physically in the same lesson as everyone else, rather than mentally taking part in what the class were working on.

But I have no doubts those two were more difficult/ time consuming to cater to than the rest of the class together, so I agree with your setting ideas.

noblegiraffe · 08/10/2017 12:32

Can anyone doing 'mastery' in primary school please explain how it can possibly remove the tail of low achievement without the systems that are in place to do this in the countries that we have stolen it from? As far as I can see, the tail is addressed by what happens after the lesson, not within it.

roundaboutthetown · 08/10/2017 12:58

Yes, at dss' old school, the teachers are expected to deal with those not grasping it outside the lesson and before the next lesson!... Inevitably what actually happens, I suspect, is the whole class is sometimes held up and some children who really are not getting it end up not actually following the same lesson as everyone else after all, so it becomes a bit of a fudge.

roundaboutthetown · 08/10/2017 13:00

A certain amount of trying to get parents more involved in their children's education is also going on! Grin

roundaboutthetown · 08/10/2017 13:18

I know another complaint of teachers is that the English national curriculum for primary maths does not reflect exactly what is taught at that level in Singapore and Shanghai, anyway - it wants some concepts introduced far earlier than they are in those countries. So, it wants to take something well researched that works in one part of the world, randomly change bits of it for no obvious reason, and still expects the bastardised curriculum and method of teaching to work in an entirely different culture. Fwiw, though, the staff at dss' school seem to think the materials and approach are a good way of teaching maths, just that too much is expected in too little time with too little support.

noblegiraffe · 08/10/2017 13:54

I've seen some maths teaching materials and their approach is fascinating.

There was a chance to make some real changes to the maths curriculum at secondary when the GCSE was changed. It was agreed that maths concepts needed to be studied in more depth, so the difficulty level was dutifully amended and now the higher paper is really very difficult. But at the same time Gove whoever wrote the syllabus couldn't resist adding in more topics like Venn Diagrams and areas under curves (but not calculus). So we also have more breadth.
More breadth, more depth and very little support and extra curriculum time resulted in a grade 9 being 79%.

greyfriarskitty · 08/10/2017 14:07

Really interesting discussion, and it’s enlightening to hear the view from the inside.

So given all the limitations of the system, what would you advise for a top percentile child in a non grammar area?

cantkeepawayforever · 08/10/2017 14:18

Noble,

I think the answer to your question might be answered with a different one 'When to Primary teachers get to go to the toilet?'!!

Assembly time, lunchtime, registration time.... Depends a bit what the weakness is. Holes in number fact knowledge are a common issue, so we have specific times of day / activities / homework to address that. Some schools adopting this approach have an extra Maths lesson each day when they learn facts / plug gaps / do routine methods etc, which allows the teacher to review content from the day's main lesson - but that must be horrific for the most able, and we have not gone down that route. We set very routine homeworks, which maintain basic skills in calculation etc. If there is a class TA to be had, then they may do some of the catch-up after a day's lesson, or sit with that group during that lesson or the next in the sequence with specific activities to support / sort out misconceptions. We do have some specifically skilled TAs with things like Numicon for children with very significant difficulties. But generally, both the children in the 'tail' and their teachers end up with every supposedly 'spare' moment of the day filled....

MrsKnightley · 08/10/2017 14:29

Too much of what we do, or are required to do, is driven by financial considerations. A lot is also driven by the fact that education has become highly politicised - ideas are introduced as being "Tory" or "SNP" or whatever, rather than just being ideas. Too many politicians have no idea about teaching (or even children - those that have children often have them in the best schools and have the children that are very likely to be high achievers).

Much more of what we do needs to be based on proper research, peer reviewed, tested within the system it is intended for.

Much of the arguing on here has centred around Maths. There may well be very different evidence for best practice in Maths, from in English, or MFL or PE. But we don't always know this and, even where we do, much of the interventions themselves are driven by ideology, or, money.

For example, I was encouraged to use a set of computerised reading tests sold by a company as "Accelerated Reader" - essentially quizzes about books pupils had read. It attempted to Band books by difficulty and length, awarding points. It cost £££ and was backed up by research from Dundee University. I was working towards an MEd (and this was a while ago so my recollection does not include names, sources etc - these are all stored on my computer, not my phone) so I did a lot of digging.

The company was researched by the company owner's brother-in-law. One frequently cited piece of research was in the US and it was unethical (children were named) small scale and written by someone with a very limited and suspect bibliography.

Yet, budgets had been spent on this scheme.

Equally, "Brain Gym" and, more recently "Learning Styles - kinaesthetic, visual etc" have been debunked after schools and LEAs spent huge amounts of time and money on buying them in or training teachers to use them.

We have just (not me, but my school) spent a fortune on "Tree of Knowledge" a private company of motivational speakers. Yay! Wow! It was great! But no one measures the actual effect of the "intervention. " Even my cynical assumption, based on those who were promoting it, that it was crap has no foundation in actual evidence - just my opinion.

So, if you ask what is best for the top 1%. Who knows? They are often already in private schools being paid for, on scholarships, in grammar schools etc. So any evidence is already skewed by the system.

DS is by any measure top 1% and he is off to Oxford. He got there (1st ever) from a tiny school with entirely mixed ability in all subjects until the end of S3 and then 3 years of subject levels allowing for some separation. He did very, very well. Could he have done better? Probably. He certainly has the odd B grade that could have been an A. Would he have done worse, however? A highly selective school might have screened him out, or he might have just missed top sets, or he might have flown higher.

Who knows?

Someone told me recently that the 2 things pupils value most in teachers ( again, no reference to the research, trust the speaker, you don't have to) are KINDNESS - i.e. They want a nice person who cares. And ORGANISATION - they want someone who can keep things running. My instinct is that the 2nd of these, in abundance, backed up by the school and parents means that mixed ability can work in some classrooms. Is it best for all, or even the majority. Again, who knows.

LadyinCement · 08/10/2017 14:33

Greyfriarskitty - I have one dc who has been through the comprehensive system and has, I suppose, "achieved highly".

I would advise a parent to live in the catchment area of a school with a high number of able pupils, and make sure that the school sets (not streams).

cantkeepawayforever · 08/10/2017 14:47

A historic example, but one which I suspect is probably still true today.

My brothers and I were probably, in our day, 'top centile' children: all A grades, Oxbridge 1sts, PhDs, that type of stuff.

We went through very different school systems, from very small rural comprehensive where barely any children took O-levels (DBro got 8 of his year group's 24 O-level passes) + local sixth form college, through scholarship to highly selective boarding school.

Our results, and our final educational destinations and results, are almost indistinguishable (you would have to know e.g. whose school did not offer Further Maths to be able to assign results to the child). What we did have, however, were the same parents - scholarly, valued education, book-filled house.

I suspect that if you took absolutely matched pairs of children - same ability, same family background, same income - and tracked them through different school systems to end of degree or even to employment, their success would not be particularly strongly correlated with school type. However, the very different backgrounds of children in different school types - from the children of very successful businesspeople at private schools, the children of academic parents at grammar schools, the higher proportion of thse from very deprived backgrounds with no value for education in certain comprehensives or in secondary moderns - as well as selection at 11 for some school types, tends to obscure the influence of the school itself.

LadyinCement · 08/10/2017 14:49

Agree with all that, mrsknightley, except that in small schools it is easier to deal with mixed ability as you can give more individual attention.

As for the teaching fads, they just go round and round. Luckily I went to a very traditional village primary school, but at the time many kids were subjected to that daft ITA reading method whereby they had to learn peculiar symbols. i wonder how many kids never learnt to read properly because of that insane idea.

roundaboutthetown · 08/10/2017 15:49

Yes, teaching fads do go round and round - so fast these days with all the curriculum changes on top that there is no time to assess whether one method is working before a new one is adopted. At least my dss' seem to have learned everything they are supposed to so far regardless, but it must be getting confusing for less able and less adaptable children and teachers!! My concern for my own children now is whether they will actually get taught everything in each GCSE syllabus they are taking that they actually need to know in order to obtain the highest grades, as they are certainly eminently capable! At least with maths it's fairly easy to spot if you have missed out an entire topic by looking through the syllabus (I did that many moons ago for AS maths which my school offered to the top maths group in their GCSE year that year, because the AO level had been withdrawn but not replaced yet with anything, and the teacher admitted she just hadn't had time to cover everything in the new AS - so I taught myself the missing bits of the syllabus as best I could as part of my revision, which was lucky, as the final question, worth a considerable number of marks, was on one of the untaught areas of the curriculum!), but is it so easy to do that with other subjects? Or even possible to catch up if you don't find out until year 11 that you don't know everything you are supposed to know in several subjects?! Are schools finding it possible to cram everything in in time? (Dss' school has moved to a 3-year KS4...).

MrsKnightley · 08/10/2017 16:07

Yes, much easier to deal with mixed ability. Although we often have to teach entirely different exam classes at the same time. Legally, we can only teach 2 levels at once (like doing GCSE and AS at the same time) but, practically, we can often have 3 different exam classes. One colleague I met from another small school was teaching S2, National 5, Higher and Advanced Higher all at the same time. It is hard to say no when you are the only teacher of your subject for 50+ miles and the alternative is kids going untaught.

roundaboutthetown · 08/10/2017 16:35

Blimey - I've just for the first time looked up the difference between the AS level I took (advanced supplementary) and AS levels as they have been since 2 thousand and something. I can't believe our school put us in for an Advanced Supplementary level qualification alongside all our GCSEs if it was supposed to be studied over 2 years and taken at the same time as A-levels. No wonder the teacher didn't finish the syllabus! Ridiculous. It put loads of the class off maths.

noblegiraffe · 08/10/2017 16:48

Yes the old AS was the old A-level halved lengthways over two years, the AS that has just been scrapped was the A-level halved widthways, so only the easier stuff.

Any teacher that puts a class in for AS, whichever type, alongside GCSEs is an idiot.

MrsKnightley · 08/10/2017 17:11

I was using GCSE and AS for illustrative purposes. Actually, it would be National 5 and Higher but Mumsnet doesn't "get" Scottish qualifications. And it wouldn't be the same kids but a mixed age / ability class where pupils were sitting exams at different levels.

permatiredmum · 08/10/2017 17:15

Ihave got my 4th child going through secondary .She is surrently in Y8 and seems to be being taught maths in a much different way to the other 3. Much more emphasis on problem solving and it is embedded into each topic rather than being extension work

JustHope · 08/10/2017 17:31

They give the whole year the same maths test to sit every 2-3 weeks and despite dd knowing all her classwork she cannot do quite a lot of the paper as they have not been practicing the harder questions

@Orange
This is exactly my worry with DS. He finds his current set easy and is just revisiting concepts that others have not grasped. Meanwhile he is losing valuable progress and his ability to access the full range of questions in any maths papers is limited because he has not covered the topics. It’s so frustrating Angry

Mmzz · 08/10/2017 17:41

This thread has been fascinating!

noblegiraffe · 08/10/2017 17:41

They'll be no doubt giving them tests that they can't access all of to prepare them for the new GCSE. Loads of kids bombed out of the higher paper during mocks because they simply couldn't cope with a paper that they couldn't access a lot of and they panicked.

JustHope if your DS finds his current set easy then what is he doing about it? Asking the teacher for extension work? If he knows the test will cover topics he hasn't learned, he could ask what they will be, then look them up for himself.

noblegiraffe · 08/10/2017 17:42

I wasn't calling you an idiot btw, MrsKnightley! Just round's teacher who entered them for both at the same time.

roundaboutthetown · 08/10/2017 17:47

We'd done the GCSE the year before. The school didn't make the mistake of getting the top maths group to do an AS in the 5th form again, though - only two of us passed it! I am now insanely proud of how well I did in it in retrospect. At the time I was just cross I'd had to teach myself part of the syllabus because (I thought) the teacher was disorganised and didn't move theough the syllabus quickly enough. Now I know she had a ridiculous remit.

JustHope · 08/10/2017 17:54

Noble
DS says he has been asking for extension work but the teacher is new and does not always provide it. TBH DS is not the best at pushing himself forward, his confidence is shot right now and he feels ‘dumb’ so keeping him motivated is difficult.

noblegiraffe · 08/10/2017 17:56

Is he getting the best marks in his group on the tests? If so, then email the teacher/HOD and say that he is keen to move up a set and ask what he needs to do for this to happen.

If he's not getting the best marks in his group, then he will need to work on that first.