Teaching to stop being a graduate-only profession - 18 year old teachers.

[noblegiraffe]

There were rumblings about this a while ago when the apprenticeship levy was introduced, but it looks like Justine Greening is going to introduce an apprencticeship route into teaching.

schoolsweek.co.uk/greening-teaching-will-cease-to-be-only-for-university-graduates/

I'm very concerned that in secondary schools, specialist subject knowledge won't be a pre-requisite for going into the classroom, it will be seen as something that can be picked up across the years, shortchanging the classes who get the apprentice in the first few years of the training (how long is an apprenticeship?).

In primary school, the education of a class for a full year could fall to someone just out of school themselves.

This isn't just about training on-the-job, we already have that as a route into teaching. This is about deprioritising a certain level of education for teachers and devaluing the profession. It's saying you don't need to be well-educated to teach, because you could be teaching straight out of school. The 'learning how to teach' part of any teacher training programme is so intense, that acquiring degree-level subject knowledge will certainly not be a priority from the start.

The wage for apprentices means this is just another way for schools to get teachers on the cheap and hang the consequences for education.

And knowing how many parents already view young teachers, fresh out of uni and just finished their PGCE, how will they take to having their child being taught by someone who hasn't even been to university?

Technically I think it should have been medieval Benin. It reaches it's peak at a point sometime after the dates given in the NC and doesn't really exist at all during the dates given for the start of the period of study.

I seriously thought that was a typo and you meant Ancient Britain...

and you mean benin - the poor african state, not berlin?

Is history still supposed to be taught chronologically or was that idea binned?

Without knowing much about Benin, I believe that some African states did have a flowering of civilisation in about the 15th Century and were leaders in science and maths.

Binned although not necessarily a bad idea.

Definitely Benin. It wasn't always a poor African state. It was a successful kingdom at one point.

www.britishmuseum.org/PDF/british_museum_benin_art.pdf

We've looked at Benin when studying the background to the slave trade.

My mother did 2 years residential at teacher training college (which was not a degree) and she was an excellent primary school teacher and very bright and very knowledgeable. I don't think she was any worse for not having a degree and having a Cert Ed instead.

How could you focus on 20 competencies at once? What would that look like?

Like a complete mess

In all seriousness you just practice at the job you are meant to be doing when you qualify, and evidence how you can do the competency eg be observed doing it repeatedly (but not all on the same day or even in the same placement), write a skills sheet about how you would do it, write a reflection on how it's gone badly when you've tried to do it etc.

I had a student shadowing me today, they did part of a drugs round, 5 sets of physical observations, did a urine drug screen, ordered stock medication, completed a health assessment, did a peak flow, urinalysis, cleaned and dressed a wound, that's... about 12 competencies right there, probably more if I had the book in front of me.

Those were different days , though, when a degree may not have been an option available to many, especially young women.

I've been thinking more about the comparison to nurses, accountants, engineers. The difference between those professions and teaching is that teachers are in the business of education. A degree is a representation of post-compulsory serious academic study of a particular area. Vocational training is just that. You might end up with a degree equivalent, but it is about acquiring skills to do a job, not academic study.

If teachers are in the business of education, shouldn't we at least be able to demonstrate that we have, through choice, sampled the goods in a serious way?

Noble I hope you aren't suggesting that my degree is not real because it's vocational because my certificate definitely says BSc(Hons) Mental Health Nursing. Actually my 2300 placement hours only counted for... 100 credits, and even then 70 of those were graded based on academic work. Nursing is pretty academic to be honest. Having the feels of care doesn't really get you far these days. I don't really consider nursing as a vocation, I think using that word waters down it's worth, turns it into "women's work" and therefore makes it excusable to pay us a wage that doesn't match other professions.

I actually wish teacher training was more vocational, though think the need for a good undergraduate degree in a core subject remains.

Terrible idea. I love that my dcs school has properly experienced and qualified staff at eyfs and ks1, the idea anyone can rock up and do it is laughable.

I've taught it all from reception to y13 and it is not possible to do it well without good subject knowledge to draw on. You might wing it for a bit but it will come and bite you. Some people are natural teachers but the current system requires so much more than an aptitude for teaching or excellent subject knowledge. However, I wouldn't recommend a dog take a teaching position at the moment, never mind some poor, idealistic soul who's role is designed to be cannon fodder for bottom set y9s.

my degree is not real

No, and I'm not saying a BEd isn't real either. I'm talking about apprenticeships which may be equivalent to a degree level academic study but are a technical training route.

I would in the past have seriously liked to primary teach. I have run a business (still do) worked in HR, worked in high level jobs back office in banking, was an office manager for years and also in my 20's did 2 years nursing training. I have very good general knowledge, have had 3 children and am a down to earth kind of person who has I think a decent grasp of human nature . I have also both employed and worked with some graduates who not only were in my opinion lacking in much common sense but had remarkably poor general knowledge. I fail to see why just because they have a degree in some subject that often required about 8 hours college attendance a week why they would make a better teacher than me and other people like me or deserve an easier route in . There are many very suitable candidates who for various reasons have had to work all their lives and didn't in recent times want a boatload of debt , who would make excellent teachers. I do appreciate at secondary level and particularly coming up to years 10 plus need strong subject knowledge, below this I don't see it's so relevant. You can have all the understanding in the world of child development and educational theory and still be a lousy teacher. I should know , my mother was one and she hated kids too.

I don't think the ancient kingdom of Benin has anything to do with the country that is currently called Benin (formerly Dahomey and a French colony). The ancient kingdom, where the Benin bronzes come from, was part of what is now Nigeria (Benin City is in Nigeria).

No, and I'm not saying a BEd isn't real either. I'm talking about apprenticeships which may be equivalent to a degree level academic study but are a technical training route.

I may be wrong but I believe the apprenticeship routes have the same level of academic study, just achieved in a different format as I described below. I think for technical jobs (I view teaching as technical and research based) an apprenticeship route makes sense. But that's just my view

fruitWhat is it about teaching that makes you think it's technical ? O think I may just not understand what you mean by the word?

crap , to be honest, perhaps nursing training aside, I am not sure why your experiences make you any BETTER to be a teacher than someone with 8 hours college a week? (it would be university anyway). Yes, teachers could do with common sense and general knowledge - but subject knowledge is the most important thing.

I am not a primary teacher but even I am alarmed by the people on this thread suggesting more or less anyone can be a lower years teacher, as if it is glorified nose wiping.

I am not sure why your experiences make you any BETTER to be a teacher than someone with8 hourscollege a week? (it would be university anyway). Yes, teachers could do with common sense and general knowledge - but subject knowledge is the most important thing.
It's the sort of thing people say that fits in the same box of arrogant 'real world' comments.

I had a pre teaching career and whilst my experiences were useful for teaching and gave me a different persepctive on some things, it would have been arrogant to say 'i've worked in this role for years and I could do better than someone who bothered to get a degree in their subject and train properly'.

I am not a primary teacher but even I am alarmed by the people on this thread suggesting more or less anyone can be a lower years teacher, as if it is glorified nose wiping.
Me too! Sadly, it's symptomatic of people thinking teachers work 9-3, have too many holidays and schools exist to parent their children, act as glorified day day etc.

Oh but if you send a picture book home then your pedagogical knowledge can be challenged by parents and you better reply to an urgent email when Timmy's mum wants him to have an egg at snack time and not fruit like every other child.

I thought they didn't have the same level of academic study. If they did, they'd be a degree and not a technical training route?

Learning how to teach is technical and research-based, but that bit currently only takes one year of the process of becoming a teacher. Even a BEd the majority of time is in uni. This apprenticeship would turn it completely the other way - the technical training bit would become the large majority and the uni study about 20% of the time.

I think all the chat about Benin proves I have not got enough subject knowledge to be a history teacher!!

Still don't understand what is meant by technical. Learning how people learn is definitely intellectual and academic?

I fail to see why just because they have a degree in some subject that often required about 8 hours college attendance a week why they would make a better teacher than me and other people like me or deserve an easier route in

Do you feel the same about other graduate-entry professions? That having a degree gives them an easier route in?

By this definition of technical would a medical degree be technical then?

I think crap might be one of those people who perhaps sees little real life worth in most degrees full stop.

How very Laura Ingalls Wilder 🙄

It was all lost at the massive Academy expansion though, wasn't it?

My elder two have both had immensely clever postdocs (without QTS) teaching them A-level who struggled to impart basic instructions. A delegation of students petitioned the head about one of them 😳