Fed up of grammar school debate!

[Rose0]

We live in an area with 2 "good" comps and 1 "satisfactory" comp. My two older children went to one of the "good" comps and did excellently and had a great time (and are going on to great things!), and my third child liked it when we took a tour, so I intend to send her there.

However, we are less than a mile out of the catchment for a grammar school, and subsequently almost all of my third child's friends are taking the 11+ with the hope of attending the grammar school. We haven't looked at the grammar school - all i know it has excellent academic results but relatively poor sporting facilities (they actually have to get a bus to a leisure centre for most PE classes and my daughter is very sporty). I haven't got an interest in sending my daughter there, and she's expressed no interest in going or taking the 11+. Ideologically I also oppose grammar schools, though of course if she had asked me to look around we would have, and if she then loved it and wanted to apply I would unquestionably support her. My main issue here is the judgement I am now facing from the mums of all her friends - since returning after summer and explaining that my daughter will not be taking the 11+ (she would most likely pass - she's one of the brightest in her year of 60) I have received bizarre remarks ("so your older daughter's going to Oxford but you don't want to send your younger daughter to a good school" being one of my personal favourites...) and been forced to repeatedly explain myself, and am being made to feel like (in the words of one of the mums!) I am "depriving her of an opportunity".

How can I get them off my back? Am I really "depriving her of an opportunity" by not actively encouraging the grammar school? Argh please tell me secondary school stops being the focus of year 6 parent conversation throughout the year...

Zadig the grammar school itself is outside of the city. We fall in an odd area on the edge of the city, where in one direction is the (quite rough, not at all affluent) city centre and in the other direction are a series of very middle class towns and lots of countryside in which people own huge expanses of land. The grammar school is in one of the most affluent small towns in question, which has a huge catchment due to the rural nature of its surrounding area. We're a few miles out the catchment area, but people get in from here as it's super selective.
The city we are on the edge of has a large Pakistani population, and quite a sizeable Bangladeshi population too. There is a town between where we are and the grammar school's town that is also dominated by people of Pakistani and Bangladeshi origin, but they mostly go to the schools in their town of the ones in the city - schools end up being either very mixed, or very dominated by one race or religion. Taken from the grammar school's last ofsted "over 92%" of the population are white British, and from their gov.uk stats just 5% of pupils come from a disadvantaged background. And that is what the children at that school have found - very little diversity. Partly because it's a grammar and partly because it's in such a white middle class area, meaning poorer parents and Asian parents aren't always keen to send their children there - particularly when there are a number of good comps filled with working class or Muslim children.

I do understand why grammar school would be beneficial to some, but it doesn't seem to cross the minds of some parents that it's not best for everyone. I also think that as a result of her sister going to Oxford and getting offers from other top redbrick universities DD2 will not see it as an unrealistic aspiration (but also won't feel pushed in that direction if she decides academics aren't for her, unlike what seems to happen in this grammar school). That obviously isn't the case for all parents, but I am lucky enough for it be so. Therefore why waste an extra 90 minutes of her day (not to mention £100s on train passes) travelling to and from a school with poor sports facilities, bullying issues, and poor pastoral support when there's a perfectly adequate school just down the road? I see why it's a sensible choice for some but it absolutely isn't for me - and I wish the other parents would leave me to conclude that in peace! It's great that their daughters are trying for the grammar school, and equally great that mine has found somewhere she will be happy!!

And regarding your second post Zadig - that sounds like actual hell. Makes me grateful we just have the one grammar school around here and that I've only faced the issue with DD2's circle of friends' parents so far.

I agree an 90 mins travel is definitely not worth it - at all. It's so tiring and she could get her homework done in that time!

Guess what. They're all in the comprehensives, and the parents who were very quiet and never said anything about secondary have sent their kids to the private schools.

Similar to the old "silent majority" saying and similar to election opinion polls where they have to adjust the results for the effect of the "quiet" people - those who either give no opinion, tell the pollster what they think they want to hear, or just don't engage with them in the first place.

I just "don't get" all this angst at the school gate. I used to stand and wait patiently, and nod & say hello to other parents, but never got too friendly with the other parents except the very few that my son was very friendly with (due to visiting each others' houses for play etc). But "some" parents just had to open the flood gates and try to make everyone within sight their new best friend - you know, the ones, where they've told you their entire life history the first time you meet them.

At our school, 9 kids out of 30 went to the grammar. 5 or 6 of those were "surprises" as parents generally didn't know they were going for it. Whereas, about another 5-10 of the gobby parents were virtually announcing it via loudspeakers that their "jimmy" was sitting the 11+ and they were the ones who were suddenly silent come results day.

It's always the gobby ones in all walks of life.

I agree an 90 mins travel is definitely not worth it - at all. It's so tiring and she could get her homework done in that time!

My son does a 90 minute journey and it's absolutely fine. Because the school has good discipline and motivated kids, they have very little homework anyway, as there's little classroom disruption. Most of the homework is "finish off the worksheet" or "finish off chapter 10", but usually he's already finished it in class. Usually the only "homework" he does are long term projects spanning several weeks or revision for tests -some days, he'll have none at all. So for him and his school, the commute doesn't really affect homework.

(The commute is 45 minutes either way - I don't know if it's being read that way but that was the intention!) I suppose my point is that for us it's a lot of extra effort (and money re travel - I'm not actually sure we could afford it with DD1 off to university this year!) for not a lot of extra gain. I am confident DD2 will do well at the local comp and most likely also be significantly happier and more well rounded (not purely because the school is the grammar school, but because of how the school is in general re poor sports facilities and social situation). For some children it's worth it and will make a difference, for my DD it's not.

Hopefully when the 11+ results come out the conversations will tail off... although I imagine they'll just ramp up from the parents of the kids who pass..

I am not sure why you thionk the grammar school will be less good for sport? The facilities at the lesure centre will surely be excellent and IME GS's top the leagues in sport and music as well as academics.Im my DS'1s year alone (of 100 kids) there was a boy who at 17 yrs old who was commissioned to design the CD cover for a mainstream world famoussinger r.A 16/17 yo band who broke the American music scene and appeared o Letterman and a gold medal winning Olympian.
Grammar schools attract and nurture kids who succeed in all areas

pizzaparty11 that's amazing! I don't think any school around here turns over that much success. I just checked Wikipedia and the grammar school has four "notable" alumni (an opera singer, a lib dem MP, a president of the Oxford Union and a fantasy writer - none of whom I've heard of but all pretty impressive!) but nothing like what you're describing happens to anyone around here reallu. I know in my DD's year at her school there was a girl who's a world class diver and a boy who wrote a piece for the BBC proms and is off to Guildhall with a scholarship but that's as exciting as we've got from any of the schools in this area that I know of!

I'm not saying all grammar schools have poor sports facilities and opportunities but this one certainly does. They end up only having 30 minute PE lessons because it takes 20 minutes to change and get to the leisure centre and 20 minutes to change and get back from the leisure centre. Not many girls do GCSE or A level PE as they're discouraged from doing so (in favour of more academic options - my DCs had friends who went there and they very much pushed science and maths-based options) and the only extra curricular sports offered are football, netball, and cross country. Not a great selection to say the least - especially not when compared with the comps around here that offer those plus swimming, badminton, athletics, basketball, rugby. The school also has poor drama and music departments (not that that'd bother DD2 but I'm trying to emphasise how academic focused it is!) - in the 5 years DD1's friend stayed there they put on 1 performance (the local comp does a show in March each year and then a showcase at Christmas and summer) and they don't have an orchestra or a concert band or string group or wind group or choir or chamber choir - yet all of these are on offer at the school DD1 attended and DS1 is still at.

Some grammar schools offer a rounded education - and a rounded social experience. This one does not.

Hopefully when the 11+ results come out the conversations will tail off... although I imagine they'll just ramp up from the parents of the kids who pass..

From my experience that's when the segregation starts. Friendship groups change as the DC congregate with those going to the same school.

whiteroseredrose argh! This was so much easier with the first two children - nothing like that happened. I hope DD2 doesn't start getting left out if all her friends do get in, but these girls definitely have the potential to be mean (unlike DD1 and DS's friends).

Sorry Rose ! It's not great and made me doubt the system somewhat.

Ours was complicated because DC were going to lots of schools. DD's friendship group went to 5 different schools in the end, three different Grammars, one Sec Mod and one Private.

Some of them have kept in touch (except DD who lives in the moment like me).

When we have caught up every one of them is happy with their school so it seems to have worked out in the end.

It's not like they are sending their kids to Eton-what right so they have to judge you for your choice of school?

whiteroseredrose my first was like that - DD1 had a group of about 8 friends who between them went to 6 different schools, then DS1's was easy because he and all 5 of his best friends just went to the same school. For DD2 it's the case that in a group of 8 friends 7 are trying for the grammar school and 6 of these parents are giving me grief over it. I don't imagine she'll keep in touch with many of them - unlike DD1 and DS, who are both still very close to primary school friends, possibly made easier by the way the schools split/ the fact that DS has literally been friends with the same group of boys for his entire life.

Ttbb my point exactly! They make out that I've just searched for the worst possible school to send DD2!