Fed up of grammar school debate!

[Rose0]

We live in an area with 2 "good" comps and 1 "satisfactory" comp. My two older children went to one of the "good" comps and did excellently and had a great time (and are going on to great things!), and my third child liked it when we took a tour, so I intend to send her there.

However, we are less than a mile out of the catchment for a grammar school, and subsequently almost all of my third child's friends are taking the 11+ with the hope of attending the grammar school. We haven't looked at the grammar school - all i know it has excellent academic results but relatively poor sporting facilities (they actually have to get a bus to a leisure centre for most PE classes and my daughter is very sporty). I haven't got an interest in sending my daughter there, and she's expressed no interest in going or taking the 11+. Ideologically I also oppose grammar schools, though of course if she had asked me to look around we would have, and if she then loved it and wanted to apply I would unquestionably support her. My main issue here is the judgement I am now facing from the mums of all her friends - since returning after summer and explaining that my daughter will not be taking the 11+ (she would most likely pass - she's one of the brightest in her year of 60) I have received bizarre remarks ("so your older daughter's going to Oxford but you don't want to send your younger daughter to a good school" being one of my personal favourites...) and been forced to repeatedly explain myself, and am being made to feel like (in the words of one of the mums!) I am "depriving her of an opportunity".

How can I get them off my back? Am I really "depriving her of an opportunity" by not actively encouraging the grammar school? Argh please tell me secondary school stops being the focus of year 6 parent conversation throughout the year...

Well I think the only thing to think is; if they are all taking the 11 + and possibly most of them will be going to grammar at least you wont have to spend the next 7 years seeing their parents at school events!

We actually had it the other way around. I live in the catchment of an outstanding comp. The primary is a feeder so my daughter spent the whole of primary attending events at the comp with the other 60 DC in her year.

But I sent her to the SS Grammar, so we had the whole of year 6 with mums saying to me why are you sending her there, when the comp is so good. My daughter spent year 6 with the children in her class not being particularly nice to her because she isn't going to the same secondary as them.

She absolutely loves her school, she has many more like minded friends than in primary. Her two best friends from primary are her friends still and we have seen them lots in the summer hols. She couldn't wait to get back to school in year 8. This is what I had hoped for her. As many people say, you have to choose the school that you think will best suit your child.

And ignore all the others that say you should send them to Grammar because everyone else is going or to Comp because everyone else is going. Choose what you think will suit your child. By the way my DS now 20 went to the comp because that was what suited him. I didn't even do the 11 + with him because it wouldn't have been the right place for him

Sadly almost all of the mums in question (bar 2 - and there are 6 constantly bringing it up! 6! It's ridiculous!) have younger children either in my youngest's year or the year above/below her so there's a few more years to put up with them - hence why I really don't want to argue with them on the matter! I could easily question some of their decisions (I don't think one of the girls is likely to pass the test as it is super selective and the girl strikes me as quite insecure, meaning she may take it quite hard) but I would never dream of doing so. I just find it so rude of them.

And Greenbucket I definitely wouldn't worry about that. Private school often provided a different experience, but many children thrive in state school (as my oldest two have - academically, socially, and in terms of extra curricular activities) and I'm sure your daughter is capable of the same
Tinty I'm glad it turns out you made the right decision - and you're absolutely right, I don't think these are the girls she'll stay friends with in the long term. I'd say her long term friends are family friends, her friends from the other class (60 children in a year) and year below who she does running and athetics in school with, and her friends from dance and triathlon - and she'll actually end up going to school with more of them at the comp than she would at the grammar, and will still see many them just as much regardless! Most of the girls she's befriended in her class, and subsequently the mothers I end up interacting with, seem more out of convenience (her class has just 8 girls and 21 boys so the girls call themselves the "girl gang"!).

I'm confident in the decision we've made, mostly just fed up with their insistence that I'm somehow doing my daughter a disservice! I think they need to accept that the grammar school option is not always superior (or fair) - for a sporty child this one certainly isn't.

Rose0 stick to your guns! There is every chance your DD will do better at her comp than at a grammar school anyway!

I've had a bit of a Damascene revelation about grammar schools, based on our experience with DC1. His super-selective didn't do the best by him (agreed he was quite lazy until Year 11). I reckon he has done less well than he would have done at a comprehensive. I think he coasted (think pupils are expected to be self-direct learners from the off) and was really rather left by the wayside. Grammars are really most interested in the ones who are very clever. I feel sure with the benefit of hindsight that he would have been pushed and nurtured better at a comprehensive (and probably would have achieved better GCSE results - his weren't bad but not as good as they should have been).

From my own experience (I went to one two with my siblings one of whom was very high achieving and the other not so much so) and DS's, my view is that grammar schools (certainly the super-selectives) invest in the cleverest but if you're struggling you are rather left by the wayside. DSib2 (the less academic one) didn't apply to uni, being of a more artistic than academic persuasion. It was only on the last day in the U6 that they were asked what their post school plans were - the school really wasn't bothered with the pupils who wouldn't uphold their status!

Also, you've got a lot more experience of the education system with two older DCs - most likely these 'helpful' friends/parents have no real idea what they're talking about.

Wishing your DC3 all the best for the future.

Surely just saying, yes, comp educated dd1 is off to Oxford next week, followed by a tinkly little laugh would be enough.

I am getting my popcorn ready for when the grammar school gives places out. Usually a handful of kids from our school go there... 22 are sitting the exam. And most of them have been told that's where they WILL be going and that they are not even going to any other open days.

Hilarious as most of them are being tutored to within an inch of their life and actually no one knows where they will be going.

Parents trying to live through their children, who they have passed on their unwarranted sense of self importance to. Also setting them up to feel thick as pigshit either when they don't get in or in three years time when mummy and daddy cannot afford to tutor right through GCSEs.

At present dds friends are envious of her as she hasn't been made to pack in all extra things (swimming, guides, gymnastics etc) They all have to accommodate the extra exam and tutor time!

Funny we had the opposite. Grilling as to why we were trying for grammars and the local comp wasn't good enough. Funny as many of those were ferrying their kids to better comps out of catchment.

Re tutoring. 3 kids at grammar,one with SEN. Absolutely no need to tutor in anything at grammar. Work not onerous at all. My dc always pity those kids doing umpteen extra curricular activities such as gymnastics,swimming etc. Personally I wonder how parents afford all those activities,they cost ££££££.

Interestingly round here most of the tutoring I see as regards GCSE isn't by those kids in grammars but at the comps. The double standards re pushing kids through exams really comes into play a couple of years before GCSE.

If this is your third child OP, I don't know why you let it bother you tbh. Just tell people that you want all your children to have the same school experience. They'll understand that you have a relationship with staff at the school where two of your DC went - "better the devil you know" as they say!

Take it as a compliment - maybe these mums and their daughters really like you and your DD and would like you to move onto secondary together. No big deal.

Also, if you don't mind me saying, do be careful of projecting about "middle class" children etc, or the "type" you perceive go to the grammar. Just as these mums have no experience of the school you chose for your DC, you have no experience if the grammar to enable you to make judgements about it. Kids are kids and there are all types in every school.

a cock waving contest for pushy parents who think their child is an extension of themselves.

That is the BEST quote I've ever seen in relation to the 11+

The only thing I'd check is that the comp is still as good as it was when your eldest was there. I have a friend whose eldest DS went to a SS, and at the time he was there it was excellent. When she looked into it for her youngest DS (he's 7 years younger ) it had a horrific reputation for pastoral care etc.

I'd query why so many these days are interested in the grammar if the comp is so good.

Teddygirlonce I imagine my daughter too would suffer that way - she's naturally very bright and loves English and maths, but her talents lie mainly in PE and music - she doesn't enjoy science/geography/RE (though she loves history) and so doesn't really work hard in those classes. The grammar school in question makes children do 13+ GCSEs which just seems nuts to me - my older two did 9 and 10 respectively and achieved clean sweeps of As and As (or "9s" in the case of my son!), but I think if they'd had an extra 3 or 4 subjects on their plate there'd have been less As and more Bs. Still excellent, but not quite the grades DD needed to get into the unis of her choice, and the ones DS is now considering!

Bintang you'd hope so but as she's the first ever from their school to go (and only the second to apply - the first didn't even get an interview) they've tried to tell me that "surely" school had nothing to do with it (actually - the school were fab. Probably because she was the only one they were able to invest time into giving her interview practise, really helping her choose submitted essays and practise for the admissions test. She also actually went to the grammar school to join in with their interview practise because about 10 were applying!)

IroningMountain oh don't get me started on tutoring. One of the girls here has been being tutored twice a week since year 3. Year 3! I think it's gone up to 3 times a week this year. Just unnecessary.

Zadig such a shame I don't share the sentiment and want to spend more time with all of them
And the "middle class" comment wasn't actually about grammar schools in general - it was about this specific school, because it's in a middle class area and obviously creams off the kids who can afford to travel far from out of the area (you get free bus passes etc if you go to a school in the catchment area here). Their FSM percent is something like 5% and their ethnic diversity is similar. Two of my eldest DD's best friends went and one left in year 9 and one in year 11 (she was the only mixed African-English person in the whole school of 800 - and we live in a very diverse city about 6 miles away with a white British population of only just over 50%), and both have described the school as "posh" and found it very hard to fit in. There obviously were ordinary working class kids there, but they were clearly in a minority and poorly under-represented - hence why I described the school as such. The girls did make many good friends, but found themselves embarrassed to invite friends to their home when many of their friends lived in huge detached houses with gates, driveways, and a maze in the garden (I'm not joking!). I think what's important is that there's a good distribution of social classes and ethnicities across the school, and I don't think that's possible in this town, and made even less likely by the super selective nature of the school. It leaves some kids feeling outnumbered, and actually creates quite a bubble and lack of awareness of other cultures and classes. I'm not in any way a critic of the middle class, I am just a critic of a school that seems to consist primarily of children from one class and ethnicity, as I don't believe that's healthy - it's not the real world!

SecondaryQuandary well my DS has just started sixth form there and the Ofsted rating has actually just improved (it was previously rated 3 but a year ago was inspected as a 2), with the report sounding very positive. DD looked around at the open day last year as I was taking the neighbour's daughter who's just started in year 7 (and absolutely loves it! Though she's a very enthusiastic child so would probably love anywhere...) and we were both impressed. We're going to the open day of one of the other schools we're in the catchment for because it's got a sports specialism and got a new building the year after DD1 looked around, so we'll see what that's like (we've heard good things about the school too). I don't think the grammar school is much more popular as such - I think there's still an even split across the same four schools, it's just that the parents of the girls DD2 interacts with appear to be the die hard grammar supporters. Lucky me.

I had the same when I sent Dd to the local comp. Year 6 parents were a scramble of elbows all trying to avoid the local comp which the primary was a feeder for.
Dd is a bright thing and some parents were absolutely incredulous ( almost angry) One parent stopped me and said "Why are you sending your Dd THERE?!! She is very clever! She could get good results! You should try for x school!"

It was like I didn't love her or something. You are right OP.. it is damn rude!

I tried pointing out that her elder brother had gone there /that it had done well by him /he made amazing progress /that we liked the ethos etc.. but it didn't let up for the entire year.
I never had it with her elder brother (who struggled much more academically at primary school) so I wonder if that has a lot to do with it.

I guess people want security in their choice and to do that they have to brand other choices as bad as reassurance that their choice is good.
Someone who mucks up their little order makes them nervous and annoyed.

I have actually had said to my face that I am sacrificing my child by sending him to more local, less 'leafy', high PP comprehensive.
Not a grammar school area but a comp near by that is all but in name...
My choice seems to make people uncomfortable. The main line I get is that 'DSDizzy is a confident boy who will do well anywhere but my little flower more sensitive and wouldn't cope'... Mmmmm....
Tosh....

DSDizzy is a confident boy who will do well anywhere but my little flower more sensitive and wouldn't cope' I have heard this several times!! It really pisses me off!

I think it's always hard to go against the grain - whether that's choosing to remove your DC from a school prematurely - or opting for a secondary choice that is less popular. Ultimately, it IS your choice and as long as you are secure in it I would just smile and shrug. It's none of their damn business where you send your DC is it?

We're facing the secondary decision next year. My DC's school has a senior school and typically the number of DC leaving at the end of primary is tiny - only 5 or 6 this year! Having looked around the senior school though we don't feel that it would be right for our older DS, who is not only bright, but very sporty. We're looking at another school that will cater better to his strengths, but we're having to be very secret squirrel about it, simply because it is already very clear that most of his friends will be staying on and most of them aren't even looking at any other schools. I know that when our decision becomes known (provided he gets in!), we'll face lots of defensive comments. I'm not looking forward to it .

I guess people want security in their choice and to do that they have to brand other choices as bad as reassurance that their choice is good.
Someone who mucks up their little order makes them nervous and annoyed.*

I this is it, totally. Like I said earlier, I had it from the other direction - people thinking I was a snob for even looking at a different school. I know it makes people uneasy, because every single time someone had an (unvited) dig at my chosen school it made me question myself!

It's hard to be secret about it. I'm just about to ask for a morning off so ds can go to an open morning. Seeing as all the other pupils (as far as I know) only look around the local comp on an open evening, it will be met with lots of confused and slightly annoyed faces at the school office. The school office is run mainly by women who have children at the primary school. The main secretary's dc is in Y6 too and she is the school Queen Bee. Not a good mix.

Sorry first paragraph is a quote and was supposed to be in bold

As someone who has been through all that and coming out the other side....

I did not insist DD (now16) do the grammar test, she desperately wanted to go to the comp with her friends - of course 3 months in and the friendship groups all changed.

She did well at her GCSEs - could have done better, but I was very proud of her results.

Visited many 6th forms and is now going to a grammar 6th - and berated me last week for not making her do the 6th form test as she NOW feels she should have done it since the school's ethos is so much better for those who want to excel. I should have stepped up and pushed, but hopefully no damage was done.

troutsprout that's almost exactly what I've had - "but DD2 could easily pass the 11+!", as though doubt in her passing is the only possible reason I could not be forcing her to do it.

Lik Dizzy i've also had a lot of "oh well I suppose she's resilient" "adaptable" "easygoing" "confident", as though those things are necessary traits to get through comprehensive school
DD3 is definitely the least academic of my four (although she's only 7 (8 in 8 days) so that could change) so it'll be interesting to see if that does affect reactions.

it made me question myself is exactly how I feel Trampire. I can't think of many reasons why I should question the decision, but at the same time when all you've got are parents yapping on about how I'm going to regret it and my daughter will suffer as a result it's hard to maintain resolve.

BeyondThePage that's interesting - almost the inversion of our case! DD doesn't seem bothered about where her school friends are going which surprised me a little. I thought she might put up more of a case for the grammar school but she says she doesn't even want to look around (possibly because it would mean missing swimming or dance...) I luckily don't think I'll regret it - I agonised over this with DD1, especially as she was very vulnerable at the time, and it turns out the friends who did go there moved to her school later and found there were a lot of mental health issues (I think four girls and a boy in their year of 128 have all been hospitalised ), and now there's apparently a lot of cyber bullying. It doesn't sound like a very nice social atmosphere, people are just drawn to the outstanding academics, smaller class sizes and 10+ Oxbridge candidates per year. My attitude has always been that I don't mind what my childrens' academic outcomes are as long as they're happy with them, and the comp has totally nurtured that in my older two children. They're both proud of their achievements and have grown into confident young people - many children we know at the grammar with similar results (or better seeing as they take 13+!) worry incessantly about the odd "A" or "B" grade and don't get the same sense of achievement from As and A*s - it's just routine there.

I suppose the fact that my older two have got so much out of the school makes me a big supporter, but I understand why it might not be for everyone (for example high achievers who really need to be pushed. My two worked without any push.) and I think DD2 is motivated to do well because she wants to live up to the success of DD1 and DS1 - she's seen them work their socks off and get good results and I think she wants the same. Maybe if all this wasn't the case I would consider the grammar, but it seems like a waste of money and time to me (she'd have to pay for a train in!).

Just remember the parents who are confident in their decision to go private will get on with it, thr ones who are happy putting their child through 11+ will get on with it and those who are happy with thr comp will get on with it

Totally. I'm not in a grammar school area and we have two very good comprehensives in our town (good in that they do well in the league tables) and most people in the area do keep faith with the state system and send their kids to either of the the two schools.

But growing up it was interesting that a few parents boasted about how their kids would go to private school when they got to 11.

Guess what. They're all in the comprehensives, and the parents who were very quiet and never said anything about secondary have sent their kids to the private schools.

As for friends, I think there are advantages to going to a secondary where you don't take the "baggage" from primary with you. I only knew one person at my secondary school. My son knew about half the people at his secondary. I think there are disadvantages of both, but you soon make friends if you didn't know anyone.

My dc go to a small rural school and the kids often all go to different schools as the primary catchment contains the corners of 4 secondary school catchment areas, and we're in a partially selective county. So most people know that the other parents will make different choices and it's all okay.

It's a bit different about grammar/non-grammar though: while it's fine at school (dc in a year group of 8 kids so we all know each other very well), the pressure from other parents living nearby does my head in. Is ds doing the test? Is he finding it hard? Are you tutoring him? Do many get in from his school? And so on. Thankfully the test is out of the way now (and I found it a fairly hideous experience) but I wish we were in a non-selective area as even though I tried to shield ds from the pressure, he doesn't live in a bubble. And the reason we're applying for grammars? Our catchment comp is fine - nice and welcoming, average results - but there are 21 schools closer to our house, and if ds is facing an hour on the school bus we may as well look as options which don't involve so much travel.

PurpleMeddler one parent is saying that if their DD fails the 11+ she can go to one of the two private schools (one has a test which I think the girl has been entered for but it's much easier than the grammar test) about 10-15 miles away (20 minute+ train ride or hour long bus!). I'm not sure whether this'll materialise so I'll be curious to see if she does fail...

TheNext - 21 schools! You must be in London or another huge city surely? The talk is just incessant though isn't it. The three we're in catchment for are 3/5 nearest. One is a catholic school and one is the second nearest but very over subscribed so with a tiny catchment, and it only started when DS was going into year 7 (they've just had their first set of GCSE results) so we didn't consider it for him or DD1. Now we wouldn't because though it's outstanding and there's excellent progress made (and very high results - 75% 5 A*-C GCSEs) they're discipline crazy! (only black coats allowed, certain hair styles/colour of hair bobble/not allowed to eat with friends due to a "family dining" system/ a whole day at the beginning of term dedicated to going over the rules etc. All sounds wayyy to intense for my liking. School should be at least a little bit fun!)

I'm in a village 3 miles from the leafy side of a country town, and the schools in the town nearest to us have tiny catchments. Our catchment school is 15 miles away, but in the 15 mile radius we have a couple more towns, one quite big. The catchment school isn't bad, it's just a hour on the bus or half an hour in the car, and in the opposite direction from most places we go. We're not set on the grammars but it'd be nice to have the option of an easier journey and a school that feels more local. I feel your pain re the strict schools - we have an academy which has been in special measures ever since the fish crawled out of the ocean (5th closest but massively undersubscribed) which keeps on bringing in new stricter heads who make the uniform ever more preposterous and the rules more prison like. The kids aren't getting any more GCSEs though!

TheNext oh how interesting! (And annoying for you...) that makes total sense though, that's an incredibly trek (and of course for social events you'd have to become the personal taxi driver which would be great fun...).
Our two very strict schools nearby both have excellent results and ofsted reports so parents are still desperate to get their kids in. Quite a few of the older children from DD's dance and triathlon go there but none of them seem to enjoy or recommend it. Not a good sign.

Rose - it's interesting that you say the grammar school near you is 95% White British, even though you are in a city. Where do you live? In London its absolutely nothing like that at all. Also people tutor for years for the grammars in order to avoid private school fees. The grammars are by no means full of wealthy families and are very diverse.

If you think the hype around the grammar system is ridiculous - you should try the independent sector in South-West London. Children need to sit 4 or 5 exams for individual schools - often with a 1 in 15 chance of a place. Don't even get me started on all the extra-curricular hype, the interviews and the prep for that. It's all anyone talks about from year 4 onwards . That's if they didn't already try their luck at 7+ or 8+ which is even more fun. I'm about to go into this process third time around and I'm over it already.

It may be that your friends are going into the 11 plus first-time around with their eldest DC. This makes a difference to enthusiasm / paranoia levels etc. By the third child they'll be bored to the back teeth.

To be fair, not all children are highly-self motivated like your daughter. Many bright but slightly lazy / easily influenced children might well benefit from the extra "push" of a more academic school. At my DS' school, about 50 go to Oxbridge every year, while an equal number go to US Ivy League or medical schools, etc which are even more competitive. The fact that this is seen as totally doable and almost "normal" does make a huge difference. For instance, I achieved top grades at a state school and not one person (inc parents) ever suggested trying for Oxbridge.

The 11 plus can bring out the worst in people, but they just want what they think is best for their kids. If I were you I wouldn't worry about it at all.

Is this private tutoring Zadig ? Do kids really do years of it? If so then I'd imagine this also requires a fair amount of spare cash. It must add up to a hell of a lot.
There is no way we ( or most people I know) could have afforded years worth of private tutoring

Trout - the Independent Schools in London usually have a maths paper and an English paper, then interview the successful candidates. Sometimes there is a VR / NVR paper too, although many schools are abandoning this now as a selection measure, believing that it gives more of an indication of tutoring, rather than ability . They incorporate reasoning into the maths and English papers instead, in a way that candidates can't really prepare for.

At my DC's prep they do practise maths and English papers (comprehension and short-story writing) from mid-year 5, every week, plus more for homework. They also do interview "mocks" because the interview is very important too. You may get 1,500 children applying for 150 places. The school may interview 400, so still no guarantee of a place, even if you get to interview stage. You need to have some other "selling" factor at this stage e.g. musical, sporting or whatever ability and demonstrate that you are the "right" personality and fit for the school I would say most children are tutored too (whether the parents admit it or not). DS had about a year's tutoring in English at £50 per hour (this was 4 years ago), but not in maths as his prep had this covered.

Some schools like St Paul's, Kings College Wimbledon or Latymer Upper have entry at 7+ and 8+ as well, so it often happens that a child may have already tried for the schools twice (but been unsuccessful) by the time he reaches 11 plus! So years of tutoring and prep from age 6!! There is a whole thriving industry around access to these schools which plays on parents insecurity and over-ambition. It's a nightmare and a complete treadmill frankly.

For a state grammar like Tiffin in Kingston thousands will apply for maybe 100 places. There is far more emphasis on VR and NVR ( I think they use this as a first round "screening" and then invite a proportion back to sit the maths and English papers). Yes there is a huge industry around the specific kind of tutoring for these grammars and I think they start about 2 years prior to the exams. The "best" tutors are booked well in advance and it's all very "cloak and dagger". We didn't do any state grammars because it's a slightly different exam process to the indie sector, but I know some who did and it's fiercely competitive. So fun fun fun all the way!