Ethnic minorities in selective schools in London

[lll36]

Since recently Theresa May has backed the idea of grammar schools for social mobility, it seems like grammar schools outside of London have a low amount of ethnic minorities. However in top grammar school in London, such as, Henrietta Barnett and Tiffin Girl's school the percentage of ethnic minorities is the vast majority and the free school mean rates are still low. Do you have any ideas to explain this trend?

Why are you asking OP? And where are you getting your statistics from?

"That's true but around 80% of top schools are ethnic minority"

Tutoring (paid or parental) took place across all the kids I know in our local grammar. In our year group not one kid who got in, took the test without preparation.

And the ethnic mix within our 2 local grammars do not represent the local population demographics.

We are not in London, so again, what are you basing your statement on? "grammar schools outside of London have a low amount of ethnic minorities"

I believe the Birmingham grammars also have a high non-white intake.

Sorry can I just comment on this 'get good jobs' thing. Understand if you want to go into medicine or maybe engineering or accountancy, but a lot of jobs require people skills as much as qualifications - EI.
From what I've seen the kids that get into grammars often lack this - no personality or not much because they never been allowed at home to express an opinion. It's very Asian. I say this as an Asian person.
In the real world you need a bit of EI etc - it'll make all the difference when it comes to wining clients/promotions etc.
Academics will only get you so far.
A lot of these kids will end up in research jobs back Room stuff nothing particularly high flying on the whole - some just crash in the real world - I've seen this over and over again.

My elder daughter went to one of the schools you mentioned. I think the demographics are partly because London is very diverse and partly because certain 'ethnic minorities' value a good education above all.

Being in an ethnic minority does not mean poverty. Many of the parents were themselves professionals; doctors, lawyers and the like.

Wimbles101, what you say is partially true but also very incomplete. In the real world most people have to get a job, ideally with a "top" company. Companies have always used universities to filter their candidates for them. Top universities filter for academic achievement.

I have worked for multinationals in both the US and the UK, the kind many of you would recognize as being at the top of their fields. I can tell you that, when hiring into professional track positions, the kind with clearly laid out paths to the top, we mostly recruit from very selective universities. We understand we're missing out on some very high potential kids who didn't succeed academically in secondary school but, quite frankly, it's not economically efficient to search at every university to find these kids.

It's important to keep in mind probabilities and expectations as well as anecdotes. Most people know or know of some child who got a place at a highly competitive grammar with minimal or no preparation, just on sheer ability. These children do exist, but they are few and far between. Most people know or should know that preparation for the exams improves the chances of getting a place for nearly all children.

Similarly, many people who don't go to Oxbridge will get jobs at Google or Goldman Sachs. But you should know that your chances of getting the interviews and, therefore, the job, improve greatly if you do have Oxbridge on your CV.

Some people will fare poorly at academics but go on to succeed spectacularly in many ways, including financially, e.g., Richard Branson. Some people will have Henrietta Barnett and Cambridge on their CV and not have success in any particular endeavors. But when you look at the whole population, it's pretty clear that academic success is highly correlated with subsequent financial success.

DD is JOKINGLY (before the mind police set off ) called the token English white girl in her tutor group at her grammar school. Asian parents - or those of Asian heritage seem pushy. (particularly parents of boys)

Her Geography class for instance consists of 7 Indian Boys, two Sri-Lankan boys (makes for interesting debates apparently), 3 Chinese girls, 1 boy from both Pakistan and Japan and her.

This school is in Gloucestershire - not exactly a hotbed of multiculturalism.

She doesn't mind - it is helping pull her along at the same level, less distraction when pupils are driven.

I agree with every beyond says. Really depends on people's idea of success and job. How many people on this thread has worked for a Google or a Mckinsey or Sachs? I have and having been through the companies like these hired as a graduate and then now as senior exec I think the competition to get in is fierce. There are way more academically qualified applicants now than back in my day when i was hired and the Internet has truly levelled the international application playing field. Academics is really valued but if not academics then some other field in excellence - business iniative , startup, voluntarty charity transformation etc..

I think Asians in UK have wisened up the fact they need to have a more western approach in people skills, EQ, public speaking etc. There are more Indian and Chinese CEOs than every before dominating industries. Look at founders like Alibaba and CXO members of Google like Sundai Pichar . Half my team in business strategy and development is now Asian usually dominated by Caucasians.

Anyway, not saying what's right or wrong with the grammar school system etc on tutoring or ethnuc mix but A grade standards, strong work ethics and values of excellence, money and materialism, family and looking after your own (not outsourced to care centres) is also hugely valued..it is culture ingrained ..

expat96 I was referring to grammar kids I particular and the selection process for them. The point being that there are kids in state comps and private schools who will do just as well academically later at GCSE and A level and degree who have a little bit more going for them than just having academics - not only personality but other hobbies and just generally a life outside school.
I've worked in the City myself for various organisations and certainly yes you're right having the brains and academics is a must but the people who really succeed have more - and it's that which is lacking in a lot of the kids I see getting into grammars. Their parents forget and/or don't know about the importance of these kids having a life outside of constant study.

You've got to have something to bring to the conversation than just your academics cos those are a given.
And btw as someone who went to a red brick Uni can I just say I've never struggled I finding jobs ;)

My DH worked at Goldmans for many years. He has fairly poor GCSE's, even worse A levels, a Mickey Mouse degree from an old poly and he left Goldmans just before being promoted to MD. His boss left school after O Levels. What they both had though was passion for their area and an ability to get on with and gain respect from their teams and their senior managers. They also had stacks of relevant work experience and a track record.

Having said all that, my own kids are at an outstanding comprehensive and they know that to get where they want to go in life they'll need not only good GCSE's and A levels but a good degree from a Russell Group uni (they aren't Oxbridge material), lots of leadership experience possibly through sport or maybe leading on PGL or similar and work experience and that should put them in a good position. They'll get the work experience because they're lucky that we are able to help facilitate that. However, although we could have gone the grammar route we knew that many of the children in our local superselective grammar would excel academically the focus was less likely to include extra curricular building soft skills as a priority which is what we get from the route we have chosen and I know we are not alone in that decision making process

ujerneyson, how long ago did your husband join Goldmans? When I first came to the UK there were many people who fit the descriptions you gave of your husband and his boss. But that was over 20 years ago. Before I left, my shop had started requiring MBAs for middle-office jobs. And they focused their recruiting on Ivy League MBAs at that. I hope they've rowed back on that policy because it didn't really make sense, but it seems that the world is generally heading in that direction.

Wimbles101, ime, having brains and academics is not a must to do the vast majority of jobs in finance, even at Goldman Sachs or Morgan Stanley. But, these days, having the academics makes it a lot more likely you're going to get the job in the first place.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree with you that people skills, EQ, EI, etc., are necessary to get to the very top. And that may well be why Asians who are pushed academically are under-represented at the top levels compared with their representation at the middle levels. But keep in mind that they are very over-represented in the middle levels compared with their representation in the general population.

Imo, achieving highly at academics is a very good way to gain entrance to top companies and the middle levels. I am less clear on the best way to reach the very top. You may have great leadership skills but you're not going to have a chance to show them off if you don't get in the door in the first place.

Btw, for anybody who cares, when I speak of middle level at these companies I'm talking about anything up to and including mid-level MD's at investment banks. I consider senior to be people who are responsible for $100MM+ of annual profits (or other impact, in a cost center or a tech company). These people are almost always managers rather than functional types.

It's self-perpetuating. I know loads of families who didn't tutor for Tiffin because they didn't want their DC to be in a minority of white children. I would guess the same thinking might work in reverse for some Asian families; they know Tiffin is predominantly Asian and this appeals to them.

The two Salisbury Grammars are pretty much White, but then so is Salisbury

BAME cultures are far more pushy towards education - white British boys are actually the least educated ( lowest grades, fewest GCSEs) demographic in the country.

The Asians around here are very driven by Education & also know many Russian's who are also fiercely motivated especially by languages. It's fascinating. I feel British kids will really need to up the workload to be able to compete with these kids in the future.

I admit i find this interesting and I wonder how the family dynamics work- particularly around making sure your child doesn't hate you/ burnout. Which I haven't heard of.

My BF is Indian. She used to get beaten (yes beaten, and often in public) if she came home with a poor mark (which would be less than about 98%- she was allowed to drop 2)

Surprisingly she's very pushy with her own children whereas I would've expected her to go the other way.

In a previous role I interviewed 3 HB graduates with really poor cvs for a training role. I couldn't help wonder what had gone wrong. I can't imagine feeling generous if I put all that time and money into being a tiger mum and my child didn't achieve

Iheartjordanknight thar sounds very traumatic for your BF - I'm Asian and def didn't have that experience. My parents always made it very clear that education was important and unlike here a degree is considered a minimum qualification so there was never any question of not going to uni.

I feel for your BF - I've heard such stories but I know a lot of south East Asians and don't know of any that are that strict. Sounds awful.

I'm sure it must exist but my trouble with my kids is that because my own upbringing was relatively relaxed I find it difficult to be otherwise with my kids. My older DS is very bright but I've always been conscious of not pushing him too far. My younger DS is a different story 🙄🙄

Someone used the term 'soft skills' - I like to think that's something both my boys are good at. They are strong academically but I think in the workplace they will stand out for their ability to relate and communicate.

Wimbles- I feel bad now so should point out my BF is actually Indian (brought up in Delhi) and was a beaten school child in the late 70s/80s (she's early 40s now)

I don't want anyone to think it's similar to a child now

and was a beaten school child in the late 70s/80s (she's early 40s now) I don't want anyone to think it's similar to a child now

DS goes to a grammar that is probably 60% (or maybe slightly higher) Asian. He has a very pancultural friendship group though. It seems that most of the Asian boys at the school continue to be tutored all the way through school to get them where they need to be to become doctors etc... DS has made several off the cuff remarks that Asian friends report that they will be beaten if they don't get the grades expected of them.

Teddygirlonce- I really hope they are joking - I find that very disturbing. I hear tutoring all the way through is pretty standard at reh grammars. I guess you save by not paying fees. I know of many boys who are there on pure tutoring and I think they'd struggle without tutoring.

Coming back the point on physical abuse I know many many Asian doctors and have never come across physical punishment. What I do know is that the mothers will often completely devote their lives to their kids' education and sacrifice everything to get their kids to have the best possible education.

@Wimbles101, I'm not joking. DS has said this to me on more than one occasion - I would not call him a fanciful child or one prone to make jokes in poor taste. Unless of course his Asian friends are jesting and he's not picked up on the joke.

On the subject of tutoring in grammars, I would agree with what you say. DH is idealogically against tutoring, so DS hasn't been, BUT he has struggled to keep up at times.

A lot of them seem to be not allowed to stop and stare and their lives are micro managed. Also some parents won't accept that their dc isn't that academic.

Germans also very pushy and efficient!!