Ethnic minorities in selective schools in London

[lll36]

Since recently Theresa May has backed the idea of grammar schools for social mobility, it seems like grammar schools outside of London have a low amount of ethnic minorities. However in top grammar school in London, such as, Henrietta Barnett and Tiffin Girl's school the percentage of ethnic minorities is the vast majority and the free school mean rates are still low. Do you have any ideas to explain this trend?

In Buckinghamshire, Indian immigrant families think nothing of making their kids commute an hour each way to school on the bus. It's considered healthy and a good way to build a work ethic. But at the same time these kids often have no chores at home and will be bought anything they want, so academic achievement is the only thing they'll be expected to focus on. Very similar to India really.

The Indians who are born in the UK often prefer private schools when they can afford it. Which is why in many Indian areas outside of London you generally won't find the kids of rich professionals in comp schools (even outstanding catchment areas).

But at the same time these kids often have no chores at home and will be bought anything they want, so academic achievement is the only thing they'll be expected to focus on.

Not the same thing, but reminded me - when I was tutoring for this I'd routinely arrive to the equivalent of a three course Indian meal at a few of the houses, for me to have while tutoring. Which was lovely.

In Sourh London all academic privates and super selective grammars are made up of a big proportion of Asian kids.
I'm Asian myself and I can tell you it's because education is really highly valued. Parents will be willing to make personal and financial sacrifices to get their kids into the right school.
It's nothing to do with being brighter just working 10 times harder.
What I have noticed is that some of the sought after privates in a bid to keep the ethnic mix more balanced are now turning down Asian kids for that very reason.

Do you think Asian would also get tutored for reasoning?

Verbal and non verbal reasoning?

Do you think Asian would also get tutored for reasoning?

I certainly tutored for reasoning, though to be quite honest I think reasoning tests can be made tutor-proof.

EssentialHummus are they tutor-proof? And if not how can they be made tutor proof?

EssentialHummus are they tutor-proof? And if not how can they be made tutor proof?

I'm now not at all involved in this field, so can't comment. Most of the practice books relied on the tests having a limited number of patterns/question styles that can be taught. But the nature of reasoning is that questions can be far wider than that, to test reasoning rather than recall and application of taught patterns.

11+ tests are not in the slightest tutor-proof and successful candidates often tutor for years.

Henrietta Barnett has got to the point that a lot of local parents with smart kids don't even apply. I know several pupils at the school - all of Asian ethnicity, all who had 1-2 tutors and parents who saw this as the ultimate goal above sports, relaxation, even holidays.

Most local non-Asian parents choose Latymer or DAO ahead of HB and QEB because they don't want to have their children "compete" at that level.

The move to CEM - supposedly tutor proof - have made it worse as now the kids are having to do countless papers to see all the patterns/words.

Most local non-Asian parents choose Latymer or DAO ahead of HB and QEB because they don't want to have their children "compete" at that level.

Agree 100% with this. We didn't even both because although our kids are extremely bright we simply weren't prepared to put them through the levels of tutoring they would need to compete. They also go for the high performing state faith schools in NW London as alternatives to independent.

My DS just started grammar school in the North West. This is not a fully selective area and only a very small number of places are available to the top scorers as we are out of catchment. Out of about 20 boys waiting for the bus on the first day (year 7 only) there were only 2 white boys.

This will not be fully representative of the whole school but reflects the fact that most of the very good comprehensives in my area are Christian faith schools hence are not accessible to more than a few non Christians.
My point is that local factors will affect the proportion of ethnic minorities who need/want to access grammar schools.

2000 applicants for 93 places
2800 this year , 5 years ago it was 2400 for these places.
The majority of the girls (over 90%) are very bright, but the parents are extremely competitive, particularly the ethnic minority ones.

I have found that Asian ( in particular Indian families) and West African ( particularly Nigerian) families value education and therefore are prepared to make sacrifices in order to ensure that their children do well. This means that many of them are tutored for selective schools.

I live near a grammar that is over 90% Asian, while the local population is mostly white British. It's so competitive that you have to be clever and prepared to work very hard. The locals are uncomfortable about making their children spend so much time studying. They think it isn't good for children psychologically, and they value their children having time for football and ballet and just larking around. Meanwhile the Asian families from just a bit further out, value an elite education and feel that the many hours spent preparing for the 11+ rather than doing other enriching opportunities is worth it.

I'm not British or Asian. I guess only time will tell whether it is better to be well-rounded or well academically prepared. Ideally, you would want to be both, but "well academically prepared" equates to being more prepared than anyone else, rather than just reaching a particular standard. So the competition drives the standard to ever greater heights each year. It's a tournament. An endurance test as much as anything else.

This is the third thread (that I have seen) started by you on this issue.

Why are you so interested in 'ethnic minorities' and tutoring for grammar schools?

III36, "around 80% of to schools are ethic minority" is a meaningless phrase as well as a generalisation.
Why do I get the feeling that when you say "ethnic minority" (when you really mean South Asian- see Hulder's point about black pupils)) you think they are over represented, not because of the difference between school and nationwide population, but because of tutoring, being pushy etc?

What is your point op?
The fact that a vast majority of the immigrants who came here in the last decade have very good education and highly qualified (think HSMP) has a lot to do how they want their children to grow up. It is also massively difficult to get on the property ladder and hence they need to save a lot too. I have seen families preferring grammars for this reason mainly. They don't want to pay private school fees even if they afford. Their point? We are paying high rate of taxes and state must return. I kind of see their point. If you want to compete the world in STEM in the next hundred years, we need to do hard work. That's reality. I like it or not is not the point anymore. It is about survival really.

I live in a grammar school area and the grammars also have a slightly higher proportion of BAME children than some other local secondaries.
Part of the issue is that, in the NW, a very large number of the BAME families are Muslim, while many of the non-selective schools are church schools.

So for a Muslim family it's try for the grammar, or go for the ex-secondary-modern, while for a nominally Christian family, there's the "find religion" option.

So the grammar and the ex-secondary-modern are reasonably representative of the surrounding area while the church schools (especially the v popular one) are very white.

(In our area the main non-Asian-Muslim groups are Black and East Asian. East Asian families also get places in the grammar school for similar reasons. Black families, of which there are few because, well, we're in non-metropolitan NW England, are spread among the different options).

The Chinese especially immigrant but also British Chinese have extremely high academic expectations and work ethic. Nothing less than a grade A is appreciated. I don't know any Chinese families who are not pushy or tiger mums and dads. It's so normal that we don't even question it. For us, it gets results, good grades, excellent professional jobs. Working hard is a non conversation starter and we just get on with it. Whether happiness comes into well...that comes after the grades!!

I say the above as I am in that community and was raised as such.

Tutoring paid or unpaid isn't really the question here. Asian parents will do whatever it takes to equip their kids ahead of the rest. 2nd generation wealthier Indians and Chinese seem to prefer private school as they can now afford it and it's a bit less intense than selective top grammars.

It's about getting top jobs (not just any job but one that pays really well and has a high entry ) and being self sufficient. We know that so that's why we do it.

Agree with previous posteroles. Some Black West Africans are astoundingly pushy as well. I know a few families there that demand a lot and have high expectations.