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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

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Original poster

Middle sets are set for failure

41 replies

SunshineAndSmile · 02/09/2017 09:30

DS Y9 is in mostly middle sets this year. He is convinced this means that he's not going to get any good GCSES. He his constantly comparing himself to his very bright friends who are in top sets and has become very despondent saying he is the stupid one. There is already lots of talk among them about uni and one friend said to DS that 'middle set people probably won't go to university or get good jobs'

How do I help to keep DS motivated and believe that if he works hard he is going to be ok? He is a bright kid, perfectly capable but lacks confidence in his abilities.

TIA

OP posts:

BertrandRussell · 02/09/2017 09:31

Has he had predicted grades yet?

SprogletsMum · 02/09/2017 09:33

The general pattern from when I was at school is the super bright ones in the top sets ended up crashing in college or uni and now have normal jobs or children and are sahps. The ones who have done really well got amazing jobs and got really good degrees were in middle sets.

NeverTwerkNaked · 02/09/2017 09:35

In my experience tenacity and commitment are at least as critical to success as academic skills (and I say that as someone who was top of the top sets at school but got complacent and suddenly realised I needed to pull my socks up!)

There are all kinds of exciting career paths that don't require you to be academically brilliant but instead draw on other skills - creativity, entrepreneurialism, sales wizardry

The key is to aim to get some solid grades but not think that academics are the only key to success.

Peanutbuttercheese · 02/09/2017 09:49

It depends, if middle set dc make an effort and have a positive attitude then there is no reason they can't do well but it will be more of an effort obviously.

DS and his closest friends were in top set for everything, they have just got their gcse results. One messed up but he admits he was lazy and is very regretful now. A boy who they know and who is no natural academic worked harder than anyone in the school he walked off with three prizes at the awards ceremony. It was a huge effort for him, I know his Mum a little as they went to the same primary school. She is the proudest Mother ever and I don't blame her his predicted grades were not brilliant and he has managed to get in to sixth form.

The people I know from my school days in top sets have all gone on to have good careers, I don't know anyone who crashed out. None of my friendship circle chose to be SAHM either, only around 50% of us had dc though.

The actual problem your DS has is that his friends are arrogant little Aholes.

Rosieposy4 · 02/09/2017 09:50

Depends on the middle sets i suppose. My middle set who were y11 five years ago, one is half way through med school, one is working abroad and having a fabulous time, one is in the army and doing well, another 2 have just finished uni, one is a fully trained up electrician. No idea about the rest I'm afraid but I think they all can be pretty proud of how they are doing.

Original poster

SunshineAndSmile · 02/09/2017 09:53

Thank you for your wise words.

He hasn't had predicted grades yet but the level he is working at indicates A-C at GCSE according to his reports.

I completely agree Never about tenacity and commitment and I am trying hard to get this through to DS. Naturally though I know nothing and his fellow 13/14 year old peers are the wise ones

OP posts:

DopeOnARope · 02/09/2017 10:08

My DS was a top set student and his two best friends were in middle and sort of lower middle. One came out of GCSEs with all As and Bs, and a 5 (maths) the other a great range of passes including 2As and a 5 in Maths. In middle sets they cover things a bit more slowly.

Middle sets are certainly NOT about failure, they are about students learning at the right pace for them.

Lower sets are not set up to fail either: they learn a curriculum where the pace and choice of subjects suits them in order to succeed at what they do.

shouldwestayorshouldwego · 02/09/2017 10:21

one friend said to DS that 'middle set people probably won't go to university or get good jobs

With about a third of 18yr olds going to university and some going later/ OU degrees there is every chance that many middle set children can go to University. There is also a lot to be said for perseverance and determination. A child who learns those lessons early is more likely to succeed than one who has never learnt to revise and study.

Have you any resources for extra tuition? I found that it really helped to boost confidence as well as ironing out any misunderstandings.

ErnesttheBavarian · 02/09/2017 10:21

Ime kids who are told that they are clever, or believe themselves to be often do worse because they equate cleverness with academic success and are often lazy. Not every child obviously. But I see very often kids who have high opinions of their own cleverness fall short, whereas kids who are hard working but not so gifted doing better if they really work hard.

Pride comes before a fall and all that. His'friends' don't sound too nice TBH.

I'd say firstly, he might do just as well if not better than them if he works hard.

But also, the academic route might not be for him and that's ok too. A man I know did pretty ' badly' at school ( bottom sets, not academic at all) left school and started up a handy man type business. He's doing really well, self employed, well known as being hard working and reliable and is doing a varied, physical job and is his own boss and is very happy and successful.

Good luck to your ds!

shouldwestayorshouldwego · 02/09/2017 10:25

That's before you start on the Jamie Olivers and Richard Bransons of the world who aren't doing too badly for themselves. www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/fameandfortune/11003122/Britains-billionaires-who-never-went-to-university.html

IndianaMoleWoman · 02/09/2017 10:35

This depends completely on the nature of the school. If only the top sets get 5A-C grades typically (so results of around 20-35%) then he will have to work extremely hard. If the school's figure for 5A-C is usually higher than that (and most schools are) then being in the middle set will put him at an advantage; all the extra resources will be put into students who are on the borderline between C and D grades (usually the middle sets) and he'll get tonnes of extra help and support.

Another key issue is the behaviour of the other middle set students. If they are causing a lot of low level disruption because they are bright but lazy or just naughty kids, then that can have a big impact. Again, the only way to overcome that is by working hard.

I would urge your soon to work hard and do his best, but certainly don't worry about Uni unless he has a very specific career in mind. He would do well now to start looking at career options and the different pathways to getting there, rather than focussing on just getting to uni with no idea what he wants to do afterwards.

Haskell · 02/09/2017 10:50

You know, there are schools where the middle children make more progress than other groups, you can see how the different groups do in the dfe performance tables (called something like compare schools now). Many, many middle set children go to university. Many more are successful but take different paths. It's about his own attitude, and how far he's willing to push himself. Does he always give it 100% or does he settle for good enough?

TeenTimesTwo · 02/09/2017 10:55

Look at your school's results this year.

So if they have 75% pass rate in maths and he is in set 3 out of 4 then he should pass. etc.

All you can ask of him is that he tries his best to get the best results he can. There will always be kids cleverer than him, and always kids less clever, so no point worrying about them. If he does his best, then you'll be proud.

There are lots of routes to success in life, and you can't tell now whether university will be the route he takes or not. So talk up all the possible options (more or less anything other than being a NEET). The better grades he gets the more options he will have, but try not to let only one option to mean 'success'.

Original poster

SunshineAndSmile · 02/09/2017 11:23

At his school they pretty consistently get 5A*-C in the high 70's percentage including Maths and English so I am confident that he will at least pass.

He has no idea what he wants to do after school which also bothers him as some of his friends seem to have chosen careers already. I am pretty sure I didn't know what I wanted to do at 13 either. I agree that he needs to concentrate on doing his best and keeping his options open.

OP posts:

Sadik · 02/09/2017 11:28

"one friend said to DS that 'middle set people probably won't go to university or get good jobs"
That is so, so sad, and far more of a reflection on so called 'friend' than on your ds.

About-to-be-Yr11 DD has friends in top sets, middle sets and friends who are only in mainstream for a few of their classes. You know what, I'm sure that all of them who work hard and do their best (most of them given her friendship group, they're sweet geeky kids) will find themselves a decent future in life - which might involve going to uni, and might not.

As others have said, given the proportion of 18 year olds who go to uni now, it certainly isn't going to be only top set dc. But also, I know plenty of 20somethings (lots of my friends have older kids) who are doing very nicely for themselves without having gone to uni - they did vocational courses at college and have gone on to do all sorts of interesting things.

DopeOnARope · 02/09/2017 11:46

"one friend said to DS that 'middle set people probably won't go to university or get good jobs""

This is just bollocks. Why do people peddle this nonsense?

OK, I myself had a wobble because my DS got Bs in with his As (in the top set, too ) and needed to have a word with myself, but saying that sort of stuff is just daft, over competitive and just WRONG.

DumbledoresApprentice · 02/09/2017 11:53

And this is why I hate setting. I would never accept setting in my subject (I'm a history HOD). My GCSE groups are mixed ability ranging from very weak to very strong but with the more able more likely to choose the subject. This year I had two girls in my class who were predicted Bs, so set 2/4 rather than top set material if we had set them, who got A*s and one girl who would have been seen as set 3/4 material who got a B. Only Maths in our school has true setting and we get really good results, especially for kids from disadvantaged backgrounds. I was talking to an English teacher the other day who taught a lower band class and got 2 9s in her class. (They have 2 top band classes and two lower band classes rather than sets 1-4 if that makes sense). I would tell your DS that if he works hard University is definitely not out of reach.

Copperbeech33 · 02/09/2017 11:55

Middle sets will get the most attention and interventions, as the difference between a C and a D ( or current equivalent) is the biggest between any two grades, and getting everyone possible into the realms of a safe C/ low B is a top priority.

BertrandRussell · 02/09/2017 12:19

"Middle sets will get the most attention and interventions, as the difference between a C and a D ( or current equivalent) is the biggest between any two grades, and getting everyone possible into the realms of a safe C/ low B is a top priority."

It may have been- it is no longer.

DopeOnARope · 02/09/2017 12:20

Dumbledore, that's a really interesting perspective.

Middle sets at Dcs school did get As and grade 9s.

I think it is also true that middle sets got lots of attention. I don't think they could have taught Maths to an all ability group, they were working hard to get tne middle sets to grade 5 and above while the top sets did Maths and Further Maths in tne same curriculum time.

Well done for mixed ability teaching, and I guess it varies from subject to subject what is the best approach.

I see no need to segregate kids for the sake of it.

alletik · 02/09/2017 12:22

"is usually higher than that (and most schools are) then being in the middle set will put him at an advantage; all the extra resources will be put into students who are on the borderline between C and D grades (usually the middle sets) and he'll get tonnes of extra help and support. "

Whilst this used to be true, with the success measures for schools changing from %of 5A-C grades to now being on progress /attainment 8, this has now changed in a lot of schools. Focus is now much more on underachieving /ALG children.

DumbledoresApprentice · 02/09/2017 12:26

The difference between a C and a D this year was an extra 1 point for progress 8 but grades B-A* were all worth an extra 1.5 points. Tops sets were definitely a priority in any school with sense this year.

BertrandRussell · 02/09/2017 12:34

Yep. Specially designed so that schools like ds's, with a very high % of middle/low ability kids will find it much harder to score well on Progress 8 than a school with a high ability intake........

sendsummer · 02/09/2017 12:44

it is the quality of the teacher for a particular set and the determination of the pupil that makes the difference. Your DS may better off with some of his teachers than the higher sets. If he has a poor teacher for a subject plus loss of confidence then perhaps some outside help.
Setting at this age can be rather arbitrary and more based on how quickly DCs can work than potential sometimes.

Kazzyhoward · 02/09/2017 12:52

it is the quality of the teacher for a particular set and the determination of the pupil that makes the difference. Your DS may better off with some of his teachers than the higher sets.

Indeed it is. Some schools put their weaker teachers to teach the top sets on the assumption the kids will teach themselves to make up for the teacher weakness. At my son's school, it is noticeable that the stronger teachers tend to teach the lower sets.

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