Not allowed to do Maths A'level....with an A

[AppleQueen]

So DS has just been told he will not be allowed to do A'level Maths. He got an A grade rather than an A*. Head says experience shows, those doing Maths A'level with only an A at GCSE will only manage to scrape a D. So puff goes ds's dream to study engineering. Really gutted for him.

My daughter's grammar school said this. It didn't bother her as she wasn't going to take Maths A level, but as a PP said, you only need 66% or so to get an A at GCSE - that means there's a lot of stuff the student didn't know. And if he didn't know 1/3rd of the answers/workings out for GCSE, why assume he'd get an A for A level?

They said that if there was anything on the GCSE paper you didn't understand, you were very, very unlikely to get a great grade at A level.

And some here will say "I got an A..." but check your actual marks - you might have been at the higher end of the A.

So the school are saying if you get an A* at GCSE level you are likely to get A-C/D at A level but if you get an A you'll be lucky to get that D.

I would want to check the statistics of how many students got A* at maths compared to the number of pupils passing A level maths as something doesn't seem to add up here.

The daughter of a friend of mine was refused a place on a maths A level course, and enterprisingly found a good online course and taught herself for a year on top of doing A levels in four other subjects at school. When she got an A in her AS level, the school graciously allowed her to do A2 there. I'd have been tempted to put two fingers up, they obviously only wanted her to do it in-house once they could see she was likely to make their league table results look good.

As soon as the school made that claim I'd have asked for the evidence behind it. Seems bizarre otherwise.

Obviously copperbeech some of the further maths content would be dropped.

I did maths as part of my degree and feel strongly that encouraging more students to carry on with it post 16 is worth what some might see as dumbing the A level down a bit.

I didn't know it was the most popular A level but that's no help to the country if all those students are natural born mathematicians, we need to be bringing the overall level up imo.

Maths % 2017 A* 17.5 A 24.3 B 21.9 C 16.2 D 10.7 E 6.0 U 3.0

Mine got a 4. He's just started a vocational course at college where if (and it's admittedly a big "if"), he does well enough he can progress to a full BEng at one of the universities that gets mentioned here for engineering, possibly alongside some of op's ds's former classmates.

His engineering dreams really aren't dashed, basically.

Actaully, Noble (and I never normally take issue with anything you say), you are very much simplifying English Lit success there. Romeo and Juliet is not an A level text. And to do the very best at A Level, a broad, historicist approach is required from students which a) assumes mastery of Shakespeare from current and prior learning and b) expects knowledge of context and 'typicality' , best achieved by a fuller and wider knowledge of literature. So, in your example, a student would indeed write far better on King Lear with a full knowledge and understanding of the development of Shakespearean tragedy -and indeed a context of Aristotelean tragedy. Those students who do this best are the most able, and also the most independent and the most committed. Those who do least well are those who are unable to put the text in any sort of context related to their fuller learning or those who have never mastered being able to spot and explain rhythm and metre or figurative language , for example so cannot move up our hierarchy in our mark scheme .

I know that isn't the point you were trying to make about 'hierarchy' but I do think it's what scientist and mathematicians may not fully appreciate about English A Level.

piggy I totally understand that having read other texts will help you make more fully formed and considered answers to King Lear (or whatever) but you can't solve simultaneous equations (or whatever, simultaneous equations are now Foundation GCSE) at all without the prior knowledge. It's not knowledge that can be picked up throughout the course. You have to know how to solve equations to solve simultaneous equations, it's not about improving your basic answer by referencing other sources.

hmmm.... you can't write about a sonnet at all at A level without knowledge of metre, rhythm or rhyme,which should (in theory) be prior learning to build upon.

Not talking about adding to a basic answer with more detail but you'd have to see the mark scheme , I think, to get what I am explaining badly!

I do get the point you make - but I do also think that there are many maths teachers who simply don't want to have to teach 'the great unwashed' (I am quoting one there!) at A Level.

But there are many wonderful ones, too!

My school takes A-level students with a B so I'm not averse to the great unwashed. But someone upthread was wondering why maths GCSE grade has a much bigger impact on A-level grade than other subjects and speculated it was because maths teachers weren't very good at differentiation. It's not, it's because of the structure of maths.

It's why the whole 'well done this piece of work is a level 6, to get a level 7 make sure you do more X and Y' marking policy is completely useless in maths.

I've seen it suggested that maths teachers should have completely different INSET to the rest of the school.

Yes, that was me! But you have explained the differentiation thing.

I think, sometimes, maths teachers should have different INSET. I deliver lots of quite generalised INSET and maths teachers often have very different viewpoints (the worst ones begin' we don't do it like that in maths' and then yawn!) but I do quite like hearing the input of the constructive ones : their insights into how to explain something to students who simply are not getting something are invaluable. Which is why I do feel many of them could (and can!) do amazing things with students at A level who are not just prodigiously gifted mathematicians?

The main differentiation that would be needed for the weaker students is time, which is one thing we don't have. I think it would be really useful if we could offer AS maths over 2 years to B grade students.

For example, in the first maths module, by Christmas students need to find the intersection of a curve and a line. They do this by solving a pair of simultaneous equations, one quadratic. A grade students will be able to do this from GCSE. B grade students might not have even been taught it. The reason B grade students might not have been taught it is that they do not pick up new concepts as quickly as the A grade ones. Yet they have to learn it from scratch and master it and apply it to geometry problems in the time the A* students just need to revise it and apply it to geometry problems. This is why the weaker students often flounder. Not poor teaching, just lack of time.

A grade students are in the middle. They'll have to work hard to catch up, but it's doable.

Round my way, at least for boys, I can only think of Magdalen who set A as the requirement for A level study in a subject. When I did maths admission at an Oxford College, we filtered on A, but that was for kids who wanted to do maths at Oxford (there were of course other requirements - A GCES was necessary but not sufficient!). The school my son is at says that kids who want to do Further Maths as well should have A. Sounds like the OP has a school more interested in protecting league table placings than meeting kids' needs. A good reason to move.

Good luck to him. Engineering is brilliant and he should be encouraged. There is a lot of maths but it becomes easier to relate to than some of the very theoretical stuff.

Good luck to your DS. I am glad he has got a place at another school. My DD1 had to work hard to get an A at GCSE maths, she then did A level and also had to work hard. Your DS will need to practise questions/past papers a lot. After every lesson, do more questions etc. DD got an A (just missed A*) at A level and thoroughly enjoyed it.

Ds got a an A at GCSE and an A at A level. Both at normal comprehensive schools (and he has quite significant additional needs). It may have some truth as a generalisation, but if the school knows its students surely they ought to be looking at each one as an individual?

I think A and AS Level maths can be a bit of a shock after GCSE as there is a big jump.

DS's friends were all A and above at GCSE but there have been quite a few Bs and Cs at AS Level. His school still do 4 in Y 12 then drop one. Lots are now dropping Maths. It hasn't been the same picture in other subjects I don't think.

OP are you able to tell us what his UMS was and what the boundary mark was?

As others have said, he may have scraped the A grade and this could be relevant.

In our local school, to do A Level, students need to achieve at least an A in the subject they wish to study AND have to be green lighted by their GCSE teacher about their ability (can they achieve a B or above at A level) and attitude to work. It is possible for someone to get an A and not be green lighted if in the teachers judgement the pupil doesn't have a good work ethic or has limited ability - it recognises the vagaries of the exam system and puts teacher judgement ahead of grades.

Student A Level choices are analysed closely in Yr 11. If they are picking things which might result in lower grades than if they picked other options (only academic subjects offered) then this is pointed out to them.

Is this because the school is looking out for the kids best interests or the school league table position? A bit of both. These kids want to go to RG Unis and in most cases will need a B or above in each subject to get their offers and places. They are guided to was subjects where this will be possible for them and away from subjects where a C or below is the likely outcome. Yes, this will boost league table positions, but it will also allow students to get to the good Unis.

As far as I have heard, anyone who isn't likely to get a B or above in anything is offered a different course to the 3 a level standard. I hear that some do just 2 subjects or do a BTEC with an A level. Some choose to leave, but I dont think anyone is forced to leave altogether. And I don't think people have to leave after Yr12 if they do poorly, although I'm not sure, but I think that once on the course they support the kids through to the end and provide extra help for those who need it.

OP can you tell us what marks your DS got and also tell us if he was perceived as an able and hard working student at GCSE or if there were issues lower down the school which might account for refusal to take him. And I'm glad he's found somewhere which will take him if he's really set on A Level maths. Would you rather he did it and got a C grade which might limit uni options or prefer he did something else where his likely grade would be higher?

A levels have 6 grades. Restricting access only to those who are likely to get the top 3 is unnecessarily selective for a comprehensive school.

Of course, the OP's DS's school is private, but all this reference to "local schools" being highly selective is disappointing.

If the OP knows the mark (Not UMS for IGCSE) and the grade boundary, she will know if he squeaked it or not.

A school who can only scrape grade Ds from A grade students is not teaching properly. Most schools will accept A level maths students who got Bs at GCSE.
A relative of mine got an A at GCSE and then got an A in maths A level and a B in further maths A level. They worked jolly hard though but shows it is possible.

Go somewhere else and let him do what he wants.

I have a GCSE and a degree in Spanish, but no A-Level. I got an E at French A-Level and yet still got a degree in a modern language and added Portuguese, Catalan and Provençale to my list.

I have an A-Level and a degree in History, but no GCSE (I didn't fail, I just never took it).

Hard work, dedication and passion go a long, long way.

One of my DCs is currently halfway through an A level (not maths) after only getting a D at gcse last year. We moved schools for 6th form and the new school did not seem to think the D was a problem.

OP bear in mind that not all universities ask for Maths to do Engineering BsC or MEng - UCL don't require maths or physics in fact as they know this severely limits the type of students they get.