Talk to me - honestly - about grammars and the 11+

[KathyBeale]

Very confused and befuddled Y5 mum here. My son is bright. He is top of his class at a very academic state primary - the best state primary in the area.

Because of where we live he can take tests for a local superselective school, or go out of borough and take the Bexley and Kent grammar tests.

We've not done any tutoring mostly because I went to a grammar (the girls version of the local superselective) and back then you just rolled up, took a test, and got in. NOW I have discovered that most kids have been tutored since Y4, many since Y3. They're having 3 hours a week sometimes. It's been eye-opening!

Naively, I assumed because my son is bright, he'd be able to do the tests without tutoring, but now - a bit late in the day considering the tests are all in September - I've realised that's probably not the case. He took a mock test a couple of weeks ago, did brilliantly in the English comprehension and terribly in the rest (he'd never done anything like those before, I guess, whereas reading a passage and answering questions on it is fairly straightforward). So we've started doing some practice papers and looking at the books but basically my question to you knowledgable people is, is it worth it?

Of the grammars, we've only seen the superselective school so far which he loved and I thought was shabby and uninspiring - brilliant for maths and science and very half-hearted for everything else. The local comps are good and perhaps because my expectations were lower, I was far more impressed with them.

So what would he get a grammar school that he wouldn't get anywhere else? He's a solid all-rounder. Good at most things, really, very sporty, inclined to be lazy if he thinks he can get away with it.

Are grammars worth the slog? If he's competing against kids who have been preparing for this for three years, is it a lost cause, even though he's top of the class? And AARGH have we done him a massive disservice by not tutoring him?!

I'm not in a grammar school area thank goodness, but my thoughts (based on a couple of my friends who are):

1. Yes, a lot of people tutor, and so he will be at a disadvantage because, as you say, he hasn't seen the question style.

1. You've left it late, but you still have a couple of months to prepare him. I'd say it's worth giving it a try rather than giving up!

1. I think that in a grammar school area the main criticism of the local comps is that they lose the top % of kids to the grammars. So if your son is v bright he might find that he doesn't have so many peers who are working at his level. I would see this as a disadvantage personally, however good the school is.

It sounds like you are not actually in a grammar area - in which case the comps will take the whole ability range so should be able to cater for a bright DC.

All depends what sort of tests the schools do.

In my area (not Kent), there is an English test and a Maths test and the content should all be covered in the national curriculum. Therefore a bright child just needs some prep for the actual exam, format, timing etc. Things like take note that a question has two marks therefore make sure you make two separate points in your answer.

We spent 1 hour per day for the last two weeks of the summer holidays on exam prep (exams was mid Sep). He did sample questions, we then went through his answers together and corrected / suggested changes that would've gained more marks. We also discussed about not panicking if the paper was really hard and how everyone probably found it hard and you just had to beat the others. Or conversely, if it was really easy, to be extra careful as the pass mark would probably be really high and silly mistakes would matter.

This approach worked really well for us and you have plenty of time to do the same.

It is horrendous- the tests for our grammar school cover questions that are not covered in the standard primary school syllabus so tutoring was pretty much essential, I only discovered this half way through year 5 but managed to get tutoring when another child dropped out. My daughter is clever but not academic (top group but not top of class) but still managed to pass the entrance exam comfortably, if that gives you any confidence that it is not too late for you. having said that after visiting the grammar school open day it was fairly clear that it was not the right school for her so we found somewhere that would be better for her. I visited all the local schools and went for informed intuition (if that makes sense). In seven years time I may know if we made the right choice ;) Good luck, I am sure it will go well.

The school my son applied to have 2 practice English papers and 5 practice maths papers and one practice humanities test. He did those in the Christmas holidays (test was January) and he got a place. Similar to you top of top set at primary. It was more to get used to the format.

What the grammar will offer you is a cohort who (generally) will all want to work and so there are less distractions during the lessons. Also a place where it is cool to be clever and not geeky so less likely to be teased about this (not saying there won't be any teasing or bullying - just not about this!)

Unfortunate as it is they tend to attract the better teachers.

My understanding is that 11+ also has verbal reasoning type tests. So I think a little session each morning over the Summer hols will be fine. (Probably 30 mins only otherwise you'll put him off)>

Sorry meant top say the practice tests were on their website.

Check when the deadline is for entry to the 11+ - you may have missed it in which case it isn't an option.

My daughter starts at a Grammar in September, she is among the brightest in a very bright year. One term of tutoring (1 hour a week) and several practice papers. This was enough. It is technique as much as anything - the maths papers here are beyond the curriculum for year five and the non-verbal reasoning is not something they see at school.

This has to be their choice - does he want to go to a Grammar school? My second child is not sure, so will sit the test and then make a decision. They have done far less to prepare but it helps that they have seen how it works.

Best of luck.

If you DS is very bright and is doing well in a very good school, I think it is not too late to preparing for the exam. Although he is not doing well now, he should improves quickly once he practices more. Tutoring makes difference, but I never think it will make very big difference on children who have a solid education. A couple of months practice is far enough.
I think the benefit of a selective school is the students' learning attitude, these are generally the students who would like to achieve high. If you DS can be lazy, then an group of friends who all care about the accademic performance will make him working more. If your DS is quite self driving, he works hard no matter the other peopl does, then he can do well in local comps too.

As a PP has said, the closing date for registration for Kent 11+ was Monday so too late for that. The Bexley and St Olaves is 7th July so you'll need to do those quickly.

If you're in Bromley, the problem mentioned above of the top % not being in the state secondaries won't be as great as if you are in Bexley or surrounds.

With regards to tutoring, if your DS is bright, he should pick up the verbal and non-verbal pretty quickly but you will need to look at the type of questions as there is a knack to doing them.

Also think about the travelling time. From the Bickley/Chislehurst side of Bromley it's a good 45-60m journey by bus.

My eldest is at one of the Bexley grammars and DS2 is sitting the 11+ this year so feel free to ask any questions (and by PM if you would prefer)

Have you already registered for the 3 tests? And so you are aware that they are all v different? Have you done any verbal/no verbal reasoning with your son? That's definitely an acquired skill IMO.

Assume the superselective is Olaves - if you're not impressed with it (for whatever reason) then don't put him in for the test? It's a marmite school that selects the brightest and gets the best results. Your call whether that is for you or not.

Only you know whether a comp would suit your son - it's one big decision. It's too late now to look at any of these schools before you make your decision on the 11+ though.

There are also summer revision courses for the Kent test which may be worth looking at. In terms of what you can get at grammars that you might not get elsewhere, for us it was the fact that DS2 is surrounded for the most part by boys who want to succeed. He is a very bright boy but lazy and tends to run with the pack so for us it was important that the pack would make him up his game - and it has!

My 2 oldest go to a grammar out of our area.
I tutor kids for the 11+ in those schools.

I think there are no easy answers and the thing I have come to realise above all, is that you chose a school which suits your child and that is for a whole host of reasons not just the academic.

We started down the grammar route, because my eldest is very easily swayed by his peer group. Basically if it isn't cool he isn't doing it. The local comps nearest to us are all rubbish, so he would have had to travel whatever we did. The grammar school we looked at seemed to me to have the right mix of competition, expectation and challenge, while still having fun etc.
That was right, it is veyr cool to tbe clever, and he coasts along, jus doing enough, but at this school just doing enough means he is doing well. If he falls to the bottom set, it is the bottom set of a selected group and he would anyway be horrified and pull himself back up.

dd1 is a very different child, and my main concern for her was that she would be in a school which was caring and she wouldn't get overlooked/left out or pushed ina corner. She is very self motivted with work, and will do her best even if the rest of the class is crap, but I wanted to her to have people of her level to work alongside.
We looked at the girls grammar, and at a comp a bus ride away, and both would have been good. In fact we did sit down a seriously wonder whether to just go for the comp, and she and we liked it so much. Then she did the 11+ and aced it, and I felt I needed to make sure she had space to be very clever as well. We revisited the grammar school and asked a lot about pastoral care, atmosphere and decided it was the better option.

So, I would say don't assume a grammar is better, but do ask at the comp how the work with their bright children, and research what their results are like. Also look at things like clubs and sports facilities, as secondary school shoudl also be about opportunites like that.

I think in the end it is easier for the child to do well in grammar as everyone is working to that level.

As to whether or not he will pass. My 2 oldest neices are at one of the top super selective grammars in Kent. They did an 11+ bootcamp for 2 weeks in August. No tutoring.
I tried to tutor dd1 through year 5, but we ended up doing a similar thing and 2 week bootcamp at the end of the holidays. Loads of practice papers, timed tests, checking she knew all the maths vocab etc.

This is all brilliantly helpful, thanks. I've registered him for all the tests already and I'm thinking he may as well sit them all as there is nothing to lose.

Journey times is a concern of mine - I know of some local kids trekking down down to Tunbridge Wells or similar, though the Kent schools (as far as I've gathered) don't seem to come out this far any more. He's very sporty and has a lot of training which he loves and which he gets a lot out of, so I'd be reluctant for him to have to give it up because of commuting.

I was surprised with my feelings about Olaves as my brother went there and loads of my friends and I was expecting to like it as it's so familiar to me. It's definitely very different now than it was back then and felt - to me - very focused on science and maths. I'm sure there are many clever kids who excel in other areas, but they didn't seem to be interested in them.

It is his inclination to, if not be lazy exactly, then to do 'just enough' that makes me think he'd do better in a grammar. But in an academic comp, with good setting in place, he'd probably get the same motivation. Although, I can see him being distracted by the 52 football pitches or the amazing sports centres at some of the schools we've been to see!

WineOClock, are you happy with the grammar your eldest is at? Will your younger son go to the same one if he passes?

We are Kathy and more importantly, he is happy (well as happy as any teenager is about having to go to school )

I hope DS2 will go there but, if he passes, we are going to look at them all again in October just to be sure which one we feel is right for him.

I'm in your area, OP, and I'm an 11+ tutor. If he is bright and picks things up easily then he should be OK as long as he gets in lots of VR/NVR practice between now and then. Unless he is really, really bright he may struggle to get a super-selective place though. It is possible but realistically he needs to be doing a bit of revision and timed practice every day.

I remember hearing a story of a mother in Kent area who was anti grammar schools and made a point not to tutor her bright DS for eleven plus. I suspect she thought he was bright enough to pass without tutoring otherwise she would n't have risked it. Her DS ended up at SM having flopped at the test. Moral of that IMO is even if a DC is bright and can work accurately at speed, some eleven plus specific preparation is needed since that DC is competing with bright DCs who have seen all the question types before and practised them.
Having said that my DD got into a top 5 superselective grammar having had an hour a week of outside tutoring from the spring of year 5 and I think that was overkill. Your DS sounds as though he could easily catch-up in the summer although it will be a less a relaxing holiday.
You can always make the final decision about schools after. The chances of the super selective may depend on the luck of the day since so few marks separate those who get a place or not.

Did your son not do well on the maths paper? He should have covered the math in school.

There are loads of bright kids at non grammars. At grammars there are kids who showed they were bright one September morning when they were 10.

However it is v difficult to pass 11+ without preparation. I would prepare for the test and see what happens next. It's such a shitty system.

Data - the maths in the 11+ isn't covered by the national curriculum until the end of Year 6 and the test is the second week of Year 6.

This is one of the reasons why children at private schools do so well as they don't have to follow the NC and so can teach the necessary maths in Years 4 and 5.

Not true anymore.

The new maths curriculum is far more demanding and a good grounding for the 11+. Our grammar uses CEM and the school states that it is based on work covered in the state national curriculum.

DD is def doing different things with her tutor than with her school. I'm not sure the curriculum changes have truly filtered through yet.

They most certainly have, no kid would stand a chance of getting the required grade in Sats if not. Anybody can be a tutor

DGS would go out as far as you are as some of their places are reserved for more local boys, but some are 'super-selective' spaces.
A lot of boys travel up to the school from Dartford station.
My son is there and loves it.

wineoclock - the CEM test which is used in many places uses National Curriculum maths.
Bright kids have definitely covered the syllabus by end of year 5.
I tutor kids in an 11+ area that uses CEM.
This year I have one kid who for the first time I am actually having to teach the stuff new, instead of double checking they know it and can recall it at speed. her maths is not the best, and she isn't top set for maths. (I am not sure she will pass)

BUT and it is a big but, there is a huge difference between having been taught (eg) geometry, and being able to recall at speed that the internal angles on a triangle add up to 180 and then use that to answer a quick maths question. That is why they need some preparation.

However in some areas where there is huge over demand for the schools they have harder tests including year 6 maths. That is not standard CEM though

Do the comps stream on ability in most subjects and whats the behavior like?

Dd passed eleven plus, she spent thirty mins a day in summer holidays doing papers. She didnt get a place on distance. We are between a srlective and non selective area. She goes to a comp in non selective town. Terrible results and terrible behavior.