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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Talk to me - honestly - about grammars and the 11+

45 replies

KathyBeale · 05/07/2017 11:49

Very confused and befuddled Y5 mum here. My son is bright. He is top of his class at a very academic state primary - the best state primary in the area.

Because of where we live he can take tests for a local superselective school, or go out of borough and take the Bexley and Kent grammar tests.

We've not done any tutoring mostly because I went to a grammar (the girls version of the local superselective) and back then you just rolled up, took a test, and got in. NOW I have discovered that most kids have been tutored since Y4, many since Y3. They're having 3 hours a week sometimes. It's been eye-opening!

Naively, I assumed because my son is bright, he'd be able to do the tests without tutoring, but now - a bit late in the day considering the tests are all in September - I've realised that's probably not the case. He took a mock test a couple of weeks ago, did brilliantly in the English comprehension and terribly in the rest (he'd never done anything like those before, I guess, whereas reading a passage and answering questions on it is fairly straightforward). So we've started doing some practice papers and looking at the books but basically my question to you knowledgable people is, is it worth it?

Of the grammars, we've only seen the superselective school so far which he loved and I thought was shabby and uninspiring - brilliant for maths and science and very half-hearted for everything else. The local comps are good and perhaps because my expectations were lower, I was far more impressed with them.

So what would he get a grammar school that he wouldn't get anywhere else? He's a solid all-rounder. Good at most things, really, very sporty, inclined to be lazy if he thinks he can get away with it.

Are grammars worth the slog? If he's competing against kids who have been preparing for this for three years, is it a lost cause, even though he's top of the class? And AARGH have we done him a massive disservice by not tutoring him?!

OP posts:
TestTubeTeen · 05/07/2017 21:52

"Also a place where it is cool to be clever and not geeky so less likely to be teased about this (not saying there won't be any teasing or bullying - just not about this!)"
None of the (London) set / streamed comps I have experience of has any issue with this. Not these days.

"as it is they tend to attract the better teachers." Is there any actual evidence of this?

steppemum · 05/07/2017 22:06

TestTube - but it is a real issue in our local comp (not London, but SE)

steppemum · 05/07/2017 22:24

and as to teachers - I don't think the teachers at my kids grammars schools are any better (or any worse) than at the comp.
BUT one or two of our local comps have teacher vacancies that they can't fill, and have a high turnover of staff.

(not all, some of the comps are brilliant)

PettsWoodParadise · 05/07/2017 22:34

DD sat the three tests you describe (not St O's but NW of course!). For us we were not in catchment for the comps, the boys in our vicinity seem to have better choices. We did do a lot of home familiarisation, working on techniques with timing etc. DD loved the school she was aiming for as it did Engineering and lots of languages, some of the comps had a very limited language set on offer. So for us it was a combination of the fact our closest secondary was a grammar, better curriculum choices and the school had a good record of doing well with high achievers. DD also wanted an all girls school. The school buildings aren't the best but the money goes on the teaching. If we'd had that option in a comprehensive that was in catchment maybe it would have been a tougher choice.

user1489830224 · 05/07/2017 23:04

It is his inclination to, if not be lazy exactly, then to do 'just enough'

St O's has a very hard entrance test with two rounds. All those who gain a place are very bright but the school does also have a reputation for moving pupils out who don't make the cut higher up in the school. Perhaps the Bexley grammars would suit your DS better.

ParadiseCity · 06/07/2017 10:24

@LimpLettuce could I ask you about maths/11+/SATs please? DD, Y5, has not done prime numbers at school. She has with her 11+ tutor. Does that mean school is behind with teaching new curriculum or is her tutor covering stuff she doesn't need for 11+? Bit worried now!! (Although the tutor is for general skills and confidence not purely 11+ so maybe that's why).

TIA

nocampinghere · 06/07/2017 10:27

You need to see the results from your comp.
Do they lose the bright kids to the grammar?
How many A/A* do they get?

If they are truly comprehensive, ie have the top ability groups, then i would stick to the comp.
If however they don't get the bright ones, then get working for the grammar. Never too late if he's prepared to go for it this summer (he must be motivated, you can't do this for him or make him).

nocampinghere · 06/07/2017 10:28

@ParadiseCity my DCs covered prime numbers in yr3, yr4. it is on the curriculum afaik but maybe got overlooked?

ParadiseCity · 06/07/2017 10:33

@nocampinghere thanks. Bloody hell I am split between WTF re school or maybe DD has just forgotten she ever did them. Tutor wants her to know them up to 100 (or 91 or 97 or whatever it is).

nocampinghere · 06/07/2017 10:41

she probably just forgot, they're not a big subject / focus. the tutor can go over them easily i think there are some rules (like what the numbers add up to but i can't remember!) i'll ask the kids later and post if they remember.
roman numerals caught dd out - they did them in yr3 then never again and they came up

MadameChauchat · 06/07/2017 12:47

OP I think you have done your son a massive service, not disservice, by not having tutored him since year 3! If he is top of his class in a good primary he still has a good chance of getting into a grammar. We were in a similar situation two years ago (in London) and decided, by the end of year 5, to go for a grammar or an independent school because our local comp was ok but didn't offer all the languages we wanted and didn't set or stream for any subject except for maths, and also didn't seem to do great for higher ability pupils. DS passed all the tests and got a place at a grammar (although in the end we chose the independent school).
You can tutor your son a bit during the summer months, try to find his weak spots and focus on that.
If your local comp is really good, offers the same subjects as the grammars and does well for bright kids, then you have nothing to worry about anyway, but should he get a place in a grammar then you just have more choice. Good luck!

Moominmammacat · 06/07/2017 13:26

I started in September for November at north London selectives, state and private. Three papers on weekdays for six weeks. It can be done quickly if you are focused and the child is co-operative. Tedious though, jumping through a hoop.

portico · 06/07/2017 14:47

Not caught all the thread. Grammar schools are great. Yes, you need to either self-tutor or get an external tutor to get in. Higher order vocab and reasoning are needed. No one can get in without sufficient prep. There is too much competition.

Over the summer you can do it. If taking CEM exams, use the CGP CEM 10 minutes test books.

KathyBeale · 06/07/2017 14:52

We're looking at a couple of private schools too as he is very sporty and could potentially get a sport scholarship and an academic one (that's a whole other world - will be back here for advice on those in the autumn!). Their tests seem easier than the 11+ papers we've got (but I've just discovered it's £100 to sit each exam so I'm going off the idea!) And I actually think the maths he's doing at school now is harder than the 11+ book maths, though I suppose we're quite near the beginning of those books so I guess they will get harder.

PW Paradise, is your daughter at NW? That's where I went!

You've all really put my mind at rest. It's hard to get a sensible answer from parents locally as there is a certain amount of hysteria surrounding the grammars. There's a shortfall of places in our borough so it's understandable that people panic, but the comps are all pretty good.

OP posts:
LimpLettuce · 06/07/2017 16:28

Yy to nocamping they're not a big subject for either Sats or 11+. Not hard either,you don't really need a tutor to pick them up.

I disagree with a tutor/ tutoring being fundamental.

Reading masses is plenty. My DC came out of the CEM saying it was easy and there was very little in it from the 11+ books. An avid reader with good solid writing and maths skills will be fine. A mock or two would be advantageous though,for exam stamina if anything else.

dataandspot · 07/07/2017 21:18

Wine o clock

The majority of the test math has been taught in school. Used to be algebra that hadn't been taught yet.

PettsWoodParadise · 07/07/2017 21:47

Kathy, Yes in answer to our DD being at NW. Note that some independent schools won't charge if you are applying for a bursary. Sevenoaks for example won't accept the registration fee from bursary applicants. Scholarship applications may be a different matter.

LimpLettuce · 08/07/2017 06:57

It was also speed tables,column addition,long multiplication etc. things you need to calculate fast. All are there now.

user1497480444 · 08/07/2017 08:36

I haven't read the whole thread, but you are not too late to pass the tests at all. If he has the ability, all he needs to do is be familiar with the format of the test. You do that over the summer. Find out what the test consists of, get some past papers, download some examples of questions, get him practicing.

The tests don't need tutoring for, if a child has capability. However children DO need a chance to get used to the type of questions. This is best done just at home with parents, in my opinion. A bit each day, to fit in with family life, more on some days if you find a question type he is struggling with, and more if you have fewer other commitments that day.

The advantage of doing it with parents is that you can be so much more flexible, stop if hes had enough, do more if he is up for it, rather than specifying times with a tutor in advance. And of course its cheaper!

The important thing is for him to be prepared to fail

Big fuss and praise for effort, and reward for taking the test, and emphasising that the results matter less than the effort.

Lily2007 · 11/07/2017 23:04

My daughter is top of her year and did about 12 hours prep in total and we've just been offered a grammar school place today at a very selective grammar. I would recommend more prep but if they are very bright you don't need to prepare for years.

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