girls school vs mixed (state)

[tw11]

Hi, we seem to have a choice between comprehensive mixed and girls school. Academic results of girls at these 2 schools are comparable - both are very good schools. Reputation-wise the girls school seems to get more praise... I'm a bit biased against single sex schools - but my DD seems to be very open to the idea, and has a slight preference for the single sex one, although that's only because one of her best friends will definitely go there.

What school would you choose and why - trying to put pros and cons on paper for both schools. We need to decide the order in which to list these schools on the application form.

Many thanks.

I'm undecided.

I went to an all girls school and even then I appreciated the fact that I didn't spend my lessons worrying about how I looked, or feeling sad that the boy I had a crush on was sitting in the classroom and liked that girl and not me. It freed me up to concentrate on my studies and we all did very well. That said, there was a prevailing view amongst us (those without brothers primarily) that boys were something 'other', a prize to be won by the girl who was the prettiest or the slimmest, a 'rescuer'. I look back now and I cannot even begin the list the levels on which that is wrong. My cousin was educated in a mixed sex (independent) school and saw herself as the equal of any boy. We didn't really have a reference point.

Some of the behaviour as the girls got older - I always wondered whether it was obvious which girls had come from an all girls school.

I have used both in the past and I know its a cliche but the girls school was extremely cliquey and bitchy. It was old fashioned too in a way I didnt like. I much prefer mixed sex education. There is no bias against girls studying STEM subjects at the mixed comp my girls go to, I know people keep saying it exists but I haven't seen it at all.

"I went to an all girls school and even then I appreciated the fact that I didn't spend my lessons worrying about how I looked, or feeling sad that the boy I had a crush on was sitting in the classroom and liked that girl and not me"

Isn't that... life though? I'd rather have her go through that at a younger age and learn how do deal with it... than have to learn to deal with all this when she gets to uni (or in the workplace)?

I just feel like unisex schools are a bit of a cocoon - life is not only about academic success, the social interaction aspect is equally important - those "distractions" that people are talking about in co-ed, well, they exist in life after secondary school :)

This is also the reason I don't like faith schools and independent ones, I feel like they are also cocoons, albeit a different sort of cocoon. You can tell I'm severely in favour of comprehensive, state funded schools :) but I really want to be open to all choices, as it's my child's future.

The remaining local single sex independent loses masses of girls after GCSE because they want a bit of 'normality'. The same is true of at least a good number of girls' grammars. Normal is good.

Isn't that... life though? I'd rather have her go through that at a younger age and learn how do deal with it... than have to learn to deal with all this when she gets to uni (or in the workplace)?

There are plenty of opportunities to mix with the opposite sex outside of school. In fact, I had lots more male friends than female. I definitely learned to deal with situations like this, just not at school. Which meant I was more able to concentrate on my work and had a space where I was free to be myself without feeling self conscious. I definitely didn't feel that it was a cocoon though.

I think there are a lot of untrue stereotypes that exist around single sex education, often coming from people who have never experienced it making assumptions or people who went to private schools which are an entirely different animal.

I think proximity to home and your DD's preference are the most important factors!

I have attended both co-ed and single-sex schools and far preferred the single sex school, partly because it was a superior academic standard. It was great 'beating the boys' in science at the co-ed, but I much preferred the single-sex school. There were plenty of opportunities to socialise with boys but the socialising didn't happen during school hours or lessons.

As a teacher, I can honestly say I've observed no difference in 'bitchiness' between girls in single sex or co-ed schools.

If your DD has no preference, choose the school closest to home and this will facilitate a good social life, too.

I've just moved my youngest out of co-ed and into a girls' school (she started this week). I've done it because she was unable to cope with the sheer physicality of the boys at the school where she was. Maybe we just got a bad cohort but she was forever being knocked over, scraped along things etc. Covered in grazes and bruises.
I attended an all girl's school, but my other DC and SDC have all attended co-ed quite happily.

I used to be against single-sex schools on principle, until I came back from working abroad and the first job I was offered in the UK was at an independent girls' school. After four years I moved to another girls' school and stayed there until I retired.

I taught physics and I agree with the PP who says there is less emphasis on "boys' subjects" and "girls' subjects". Plenty of girls did physics at A level and went on to do physics-related degrees.

The girls also seemed very focused in lessons and wanted to succeed.

The lack of boys in school didn't seem to stop them finding boyfriends - mostly from the boys' school.

The second girls' school I taught in had a partnership arrangement with the boys' school so sixth-form classes were mixed. That was a very good arrangement - the girls had already passed their GCSEs (often with better grades than the boys) and had plenty of confidence, so there was a degree of competition to get the best grades.

But really, your DD is the one who will be going there - for the next five or seven years - so I think the final decision ought to rest with her.

@goodbyestranger: the girls school 6th form is already co-ed, not sure how many boys are enrolled though.

@Ratatouille: that's precisely why I've started this discussion. The very idea of single sex school is so foreign to me, a lot of mental resistance :) I grew up in a country with no such thing. We did have selective state schools though, in fact when I grew up all state schools were co-ed selective.

@farangatang: I agree on the proximity and the fact that one is walking distance is a strong argument for the co-ed - that and the fact that she will know more kids in the co-ed school, it's the local 'default' comp. However, if the local comp wasn't any good, walking distance wouldn't be such a strong argument anymore :)

Ratatatouille I make no inexperienced assumptions. I went to a London GDST, and was fine with single sex myself but see it as completely outdated now. If these schools were re-founded, they'd all be co-ed.

OP yes that's a good strategy for the sixth form and one a number of girls schools are having to consider, but it takes much more doing to lure boys to a girls school than the other way round - the traffic is overwhelmingly one way.

I think the point about not worrying what the boys think/not being self-conscious etc tw11 is that of course you are going to have to face it at some point, but if you spend the first 10/15/20 years of your life believing yourself to be worth something and appreciated for what you can do and for what you are, irrespective of looks, when you come up against someone rating you solely on your looks and whether they want to have sex with you or not, it doesn't affect you as much. Mentally, anyway. That was my experience of single-sex. But I don't know the ins and outs of the schools and the logistics, so one may prove better/easier in those terms for your DD and yourself over and above the benefits of co-ed vs single sex.

@leonardthelemming: school selection will be my decision in the end. I am and will discuss it with her and we will try to reach the decision point together, but I think a child at this age doesn't really understand the implications of one or the other. She will have choice of A-levels, 6th form, uni - that's a different story, she'll be more mature by then - but she's too young now to be left to make decisions like this one.

Her only argument at the moment is that her best friend is going to the girls school (and that's only because that girl isn't in the 'catchment' for the co-ed - her parents are leaning towards co-ed too - but the co-ed that they can go to has some issues).

In any case at the moment even DD is unsure, her preference isn't that strong - we'll be going to visit the co-ed school and will take it from there.

Thanks again everyone!

Definitely visit. I'd bet you'll know just from that. My DS is at a mixed comp. His friendship group is equally boys and girls, which isn't at all unusual there, yet his friends from primary who ended up at another local school think that's weird. They say they don't mix with the girls, as it's just not what happens at their school. Then I've met a fair few girls who are at the local single sex school, who seem to think that's quite bitchy and competitive. To contrast that, a friend whose daughter's in a girl's school elsewhere adores the school and says it's really nurturing and calm. All schools will be different. Honestly, I was amazed when I started looking round at the different feel of each one.

OP if you are in TW11 I have 3 DDs at the girls school and am happy for you to DM me any questions. DH and I grew up in s country with no state single sex schools and the whole idea was alien to me for many of the reasons cited above. We ended up at the girls school after an unexpected house move and it has been a revelation. The DC love it, and they are three very different characters.

The remaining local single sex independent loses masses of girls after GCSE because they want a bit of 'normality'. The same is true of at least a good number of girls' grammars

Certainly not all though, my DD's gains a lot more girls for 6th form. Only a few left, most of those because of wanting to do specific courses elsewhere eg btecs.

The girls Grammars around here certainly don't lose lots in the 6th form , obviously a few girls transfer to the boys grammar and a similar number move the other way . You do find a fair few girls and boys moving from independent to grammar for 6th form , or that was my experience when we did the 6 th form rounds with ds a few years back .

Our local girls grammar has an inflow for their sixth form, but mostly from nearby co-ed comps. The girls who don't stay from GCSE to their sixth form are usually moving away or changing to other education rather than sixth forms. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone leaving the grammar to move to a local co-ed comp.

I would say academically girls do better in an all girls school, however, and this is just my experience locally to me where we have two state schools and two girls schools, I would not just go on academic results. I would look very carefully and closely at the social/emotional side as this is equally if not more important but is very difficult to get a feel for. I have heard from parents of DDs friends who attend single sex make mention and also from my Dsis of some worrying behaviour/trends whichever seem more prevalent in a girls school. Whilst you get issues at a state school they do tend to be of a different nature. This is just my experience mind.

"Is one of them a faith school?
Is one of them academically selective?
Outside London, all girls schools are always one of the above."

Not true in our area.

time4chocolate I think you're wrongly conflating girls schools with independent schools. There isn't an exact correlation. There are perfectly ordinary non faith non selective girls' schools.

Floralnomad the very distinct trend in single sex grammars is for girls to migrate to the boys grammar if the girls grammar has a single sex sixth form. If the boys sixth form remains single sex then it's much more unusual for boys to migrate to a mixed sixth form at a grammar which is single sex girls for Y7 to11.

goodbye - apologies, just read my post back and can see where you got the independent school bit from and I have made a mess of my post. Should have read 2 state mixed and 2 state girls (grammar) schools. Posted before I had my first coffee!!

Results aren't everything, I have 2 dc at one of the local comps and they're very happy, but...the 2 local comps close to the girls school you're talking about are very fond of saying that if you just look at their girls' results, they're just as good as the girls' results from the girls school. Basic percentages of A*-C maybe, but if you go into the nitty gritty of individual subjects it's clear that the girls school is much more consistent across the board and obtains many more top grades in all subjects. Take a look on their websites for their results by subject and you will see. Depends what you want - I have dc at one of the comps and in my mind they are not pushed at all. Whereas at the girls school they are definitely worked harder. Different environments work for different children - but if you're the type of parent who will get frustrated at a lack of homework or 'pushing' then I would go with the girls school.

Individual schools are different. Perhaps it's one of the problems with our education system that there's so much variation, lack of standardisation and lack of consistency???

You can't say all girls' schools are xxxx, or all grammars are yyyy, or all faith schools are zzzz, nor all comps are hhhh or all co-eds are jjjj. It just doesn't work like that. There are good, bad and mediocre within each group.

But it doesn't even stop there. What is a good school for child A could be the worst school for child B. It has to be a VERY personal decision for each child based on the child's personality, ability, aspirations, and the school choices available to that child.

Having pre-conceived ideas about types of schools or superimposing our own schooling experiences onto our children isn't helpful at all.

Neither my OH nor I went to single sex schools nor grammar schools, in fact, no-one in our immediate family nor friends groups went to single sex nor grammar. Yet our son goes to a single sex grammar. It wasn't even on our radar until our son was about 8 years old and we started to think about schools. We don't have an "automatic" catchment secondary school within walking distance, so kids from his primary school regularly split between up to 10 secondaries, some across a county border, as a bus journey is inevitable for all, so whether you go a few miles one way or another, or an extra mile or two doesn't really make a difference. I think we visited 5 or 6 open days, with an open mind. What swung it for us was the friendless of the teachers and how they we so keen to engage with our son - it was clearly a friendly and nurturing environment. Sadly at some of the other schools, the teachers acted as if we weren't there and avoided eye contact etc which didn't come across well at all. Once DS had decided which school he liked, he put the effort in to practice and pass the 11+ and the rest is history. It was definitely the right decision for him, despite the academic pressure and lack of girls - he's thrived and loves the place!

"Is one of them a faith school?
Is one of them academically selective?
Outside London, all girls schools are always one of the above."

Nor in my area. We are very lucky to have one of the top 10 non selective single sex schools in our town and it gets outstanding results. Will be applying there for DD in October (her choice though).