Is Taking two languages to GCSE really too hard?!

[Desertdweller1]

DD (Y8) has to choose French, Spanish or both (though only certain pupils are permitted to do both, including DD) shortly for study in Y9 and ultimately GCSE.

We had always assumed she would do both as she has shown promise in languages and enjoyed them.

However, in advising pupils, the head of languages has said something we find very worrying. He has advised, in general, against pupils taking both as they have found 'dual linguists' at the school (who are usually the best linguists) do worse than those studying one language.

What on earth does this say to you about the languages department??

I did two languages, many people did. What is suddenly so hard about taking two side by side? There is talk of confusion between the two languages.

I am underwhelmed!

I did French and German gcse and carried the French on to Higher IB. The German was a bit of a waste imo and would rather have had Spanish and French.

Dds both did 2 MFLs, DS did only 1. The two who have finished got A*s in their languages. DH did 1 MFL & Latin, I did 2 MFLs & Latin & 2 a/os & then A levels in 2 MFLs. I think the more languages you learn the easier they are as your brain becomes used to changing languages. She should study the subjects she enjoys.

DD did 2 MFLs under the old GCSE system.

What really helped her is there was only 1 'question answering technique' to learn for the two subjects. So once she had the hang of what was needed for e.g the French spoken CA, she knew exactly what she had to do for the Spanish one too.

Occasionally she got the languages muddled up, but the benefits outweighed the drawbacks for her.

I wonder if it's a timetabling thing. I used to work at a school where students had 3 hours of language learning a week, but dual linguists had to do both in the same time (so 1.5 hours each). That led to poorer results in some cases.

They also tried out a system whereby they did French in years 7,8,9 and did gcse French then. And then Spanish in years 10 and 11. That was a complete and utter shambles. Absolutely horrendous for everyone. Imagine getting Year 8 to do controlled assessments after just over a year of learning the language.

a languages GCSE is very hard

it really isn't. Why do people keep saying this? It's even worse when teachers say it. Language GCSEs are about the easiest subject you can do. No heavy revision required - if you can afford to visit the countries before the exams, that's the only revision you need.

And yes, two are doable. I only did one, but many people at my school did two.

They are hard. And the results are lower than other subjects. It is definitely not the "easiest" subject you can do. And many people either cannot afford to go to the country or do not have the opportunity to learn the language in an immersive situation such as with an exchange family.

They are not hard. They are spectacularly poorly taught in the state sector. Largely because students in the UK are not taught the basics of English grammar early enough. When a primary school head doesn't know how to use was and were correctly there is little hope. Too many English children by year eight don't have a sufficient grasp of the basics: subject, object, verb, adverb. The problems begin long before learning a second language.

OhtheRoses - agree - languages are tricky when you don't understand the grammar of your native language.

Not many students get the chance to do two languages, sadly. I teach MFL and I am lucky enough to have five language o levels! I would day learning multiple languages actually helps, eg set phrases for "there is" or a variety of genders. We have recently introduced dual linguists in yr 9 at my school and five are doing two to GCSE so we are really excited.

Sounds like nonsense from yr school op.

I did French and German....but about 20 something years ago so not sure how relevant. Came top in both - I think you've either got the knack for languages or not. I did (but didn't have for sciences unfortunately...!)

Oh and the new GCSE in MFL is hard. With the old one, learn your CAs and you're sorted. New one demands a lot more (returns to marking of yr 10 writing mocks)

dd1 (now in Yr 13) did French and German and had no problems between them. No more confusion than between doing maths and physics, say.
dd2 (currently Yr10) is doing French and German and often reports to me that she gets them mixed up. She is very self critical though - her teachers are very optimistic about her predicted grades for next year, in so far as anyone can guestimate with a new spec so I think it does depend.

^I'm concerned that the new GCSE is harder than what we did many moons ago.
I did O levels. Is it going to be even harder Darkblueskies?^

My understanding is that the new spec is much closer to what we did for O-levels, and therefore much more difficult than the GCSEs my older two did, where basically they just had to learn a passage by rote and regurgitate it. The new spec is much better preparation for actually being able to speak / understand / use the language, which the GCSE, in recent years, certainly has been.

To some extent her choices will depend on what her other option combinations might be. I think if she is able and interested in languages, then it will stand her in good stead longer term, but if she's one of those students that all the subject teachers are fighting over, then she should choose what she enjoys.

Learning the CAs made the previous GCSEs easy though, rather than not learning CAs being hard. What I mean is it's only hard in comparison with what sounds like an easy spec before. My children have done IGCSEs and there's no advanced learning there apart from a short presentation for the oral. Otherwise it's reading, listening and writing, with no knowledge in advance of which topics will come up.

In my experience, the more languages you know and understand, the easier additional ones are to learn. Lots of kids at our school take 2 or more language GCSEs (current year 10).

ontop I hear you and yes of course that's true. And equally of course, current year 9s and 10s haven't done a GCSE MFL so they don't know what they are missing as it were (unless they have older siblings).

All the MFL teachers I know hate CAs and are glad to see them go, so open to abuse and hence never a level playing field. But I am concerned about the level expected by the new GCSE.

Translation into English is one thing, but translation into German or free writing in German seems to be a big challenge. However, we need to frame our teaching to make sure students have the tools.

And I stand by my first post - if you can do once language well, a second will be easier than a totally different subject, as you will be using similar tools/skills, there will be correlation between the languages (even French and German) and your flair (assuming you have one!) will surely transfer. :)

DD1 has nearly finished her iGCSE French and German, and is doing Latin GCSE too. She is also planning to do all three for A level, plus History or Maths. No problems at all. None either for DD and her friends in year 9 who are doing all of the above plus Spanish. If your DD likes languages, she should be fine.

My concern is more whether there is any point in doing so many languages in a post-Brexit world. But if that's what DD1 wants to do, I don't want to discourage her.

CAs were all about learning tracts of language off by heart so they were not a good test of language. It didn't make them easier or harder: it was a different skill. Some kids I taught were really good linguists but found it hard to learn off by heart. Some were not that great but could learn well by heart. Ridiculous test.

One of ours is markedly dispraxic and stroked with practical subjects - which were meant to be a compulsory choice at GCSE. She and we spoke to head of year and explained she'd likely get A in Latin (second language) but might fail practical subject and that was not in anyone's interest. She was allowed to do the two languages.
I think five of ours did two Languages to GCSE. They are all reasonably fluent in French having been taught since nursery and holidays, French friends etc so was an easy win.

DS did Spanish, French & Latin at school then added German at uni. I think if you have a flair for languages it is fairly easy to add more and the associated qualification.
DS now teaches MFL but I don't know what his view is of the impact of the new gcse on taking more than one language.

Post Brexit has nothing to do with anything. Languages are valuable because they show you have the intellect and ability to study something demanding. Studying two should be fine for someone with the required ability and dedication.

My linguist DD found both her MFL GCSEs far too easy and she did a lot of prep for A level early. I imagine this won't be so necessary now but it is really vital for linguists to do two MFL GCSEs if they can. Should they want to do a degree in MFL, they have a wider choice and don't have to do ab initio for joint honours. I don't see why talented linguists should not be accommodated. Everyone does three sciences whether they need them or not but languages are considered second rate and only needed for work abroad purposes, not for academic rigour. We limit learning in this country which is why MFL degrees have lots of privately educated pupils on them.

Strange comment from a language teacher. At our school almost everybody takes two language GCSEs and most do very well.

I did French and german for GCSE and then for a Levels, got As each time. found them a lot easier than most other subjects tbh.

Seems a strange comment, I think there were plenty who did two for GCSE.

2 language GCSEs is perfectly possible if you enjoy them. Dd2 is yr 11 and doing French and Spanish, they're her favourite subjects and she wants to continue with both at 6th form.

It's rare in her school to do 2 and the teachers did suggest it might be hard, but the only hard bit was all those horrible rote-learning controlled assessments which are not in the new GCSE.

One language doesn't seem much if you're actually interested in languages, and might go on to study languages or linguistics, or move abroad.

French and German GCSE: both A. French and German A-Level: both A (it is hard to get an A in a language A-Level). Now studying both at degree level. My language teachers would've been very surprised had I dropped either of them at any point! I was very good at them and enjoyed them. It all depends on your ability and enjoyment of the subject.