When parents are slagging off the local comp...

[Everyoneafter3]

I've posted before about my concerns over the local secondary, which, thanks to comments on this board and an excellent recent Ofsted, are very much allayed. I had a very good read of school newsletters etc and am much happier. Dd1 (Y4) is musically gifted and will also audition for a specialist music school.

The area in which we live is very affluent: many children round here go to fee-paying independent schools. These dc are going to school and telling my dd (and others) that the local secondary is rubbish ("my mum and dad say..."). One particularly stupid parent has said at home that "no child of mind will set foot in x school" which of course is coming back home with our dd.

Dd1 has now got it into her head that the local school is terrible, that she's really upset to go to not a good school, that she wishes we weren't poor (we're not! But no, we can't afford independent school fees without having to sacrifice other stuff we prioritise as a family). She's been researching exam results and all sorts.

For our part we've said well look at any local school she'd like to, although as we live across the road from the school in question it'd be unlikely that she'd get in.

I'm heartily sick of parents telling their dc how awful the local school is. It's simply not fair. My dc won't receive a 'lesser' education. They aren't going to a 'rubbish' school. If this continues I'm tempted to speak to their current primary school tbh. What else can I do? I've told dd to not listen, we've looked at the school website, talked about results (!) but I'm at a loss.

Anecdotal evidence is that disproportionate numbers from ~Westminster go to Christ's Church

So your previous statement of supposed fact for Eton and Winchester has now been retracted?

At least no one is denying they have a connection to Westminster!

Why would anybody want to deny the history of the foundation and statutes of this college or others?

BTW what is your 'strong' anecdotal evidence BTW that Christ Church admissions are favouring Westminster pupils irrespective of their ability / academic standards compared to other schools? Do they get a lower percentage of firsts and 2:1s?

Sendsummer - that friends of mine went to Westminster said that a huge % of Christ's Church undergrades were from Westminster.

I'm not sure why Westminster still has to have the dean of Christ's Church on their governing body? A bit cosy, isn't it?

Winchester was a typo!

Eton I believed to be the case - but obviously is no longer. 10 years ago they were stuffed to the gills with Eton boys (or so said my friends at Oxford - they could be wrong).

Perhaps goodbye can tell us the stats as she appears to know them.

Alyosha I don't want to spoil your lunch but perhaps check out the governing body of Winchester? Because you haven't developed your New College theory as fully. Just mixing it up :)

I don't think I ever claimed Eton & Westminster had a monopoly on nepotistic oxbridge entrance...happy to make some room for Winchester and New college too!

I'm of the opinion that the pupils at Westminster School must be a talented lot; five minutes googling came up with this impressive list:

www.westminster.org.uk/archie-hall-crowned-world-schools-debating-champion/
www.westminster.org.uk/masters-of-maths/
www.physics.ox.ac.uk/olympiad/IPhO2010.html
www.trin.cam.ac.uk/undergraduate/essay-prizes/history/
www.trin.cam.ac.uk/undergraduate/essay-prizes/linguistics/
www.keats-shelley.co.uk/the-keats-shelley-prize/keats-shelley-prize-2015
www.rsc.org/news-events/articles/2015/sep/olympiad-2015/
www.res.org.uk/details/news/8235771/Winners-of-the-RES-Young-Economist-Competition-2015-announced.html
www.ukbiologycompetitions.org/british-biology-olympiad/2016/

Also, if you read the ISI inspection report for Westminster you get the impression that the teaching is rather good too;
www.westminster.org.uk/westminster/about/inspection-reports/
"the most able pupils .......work at levels more common to early university work."

I'm sure Westminster is a great school, Clavinova.

That's really not what the discussion is about, though.

If Westminster pupils are such brain boxes, then fair play to them if they nab a chunk of Oxbridge places.

Otoh I'm sure that the system of Bertie Woosters getting shoehorned in to some college of other has long gone. Two of my cousins went to Cambridge on closed scholarships, whereby certain schools had automatic places reserved for them. They actually were clever people, but obviously that system was a bit off. I suppose if the school made contributions then why not? They were only a few places.

I think it's a red herring when widening participation is just judged as "free school meals". Surely the participants who are likely to be edged out are those from middle-class backgrounds who qualify for no help but can't access (the better parts of) a private school education.

Personal experience is that OP should fear not the local comprehensive. Ds is going to Oxbridge (popular college, not one for "state schoolers" as I saw some of them referred to on MN once ) and we've never paid out a cent.

Mousy, widening participation on this thread has been about suggesting that pupils at some of the most selective state schools in the country might also want to "nab" an equivalent chunk of Oxbridge places...

It's frustrating for me because Westminster and its ilk were originally set up to provide free state education, from state taxation/gifts (such as it was back then). Their close relationships with some of the only HE establishments in the country was then totally justified. In fact it still would be if Eton et al had genuinely fair access.

It's really not justifiable now.

Are you continuing to suggest that pupils at Westminster, Eton, Winchester or whatever are given an easier time at interview and pre-test marking than other candidates?

If they are then they will underperform compared to other schools with their degree results. Perhaps this could be discovered by a FOI application.

However if they are better academically they will continue to get the places unless positive discrimination is implemented for state schools (on top of what is already done with contextual data)

Sendsummer - yes, but that's not the whole story IMO.

I think there are several reasons why Westminster, NLCS, Eton get in to Oxbridge, and elite grammar pupils find it more difficult.

1. Overt discrimination. Some admissions tutors at some colleges will be predisopsed to look favourably on Eton/Westminster, especially if their college has an overt link with one of the schools. Or indeed another school, like Winchester. They are more likely to get interviews with the same or worse predicted grades.

2. Unconscious discrimination. Due to the big name nature of top public schools, their pupils will benefit from a positive bias during interviewing. Fatal flaws in other pupils may be seen as amusing quirks. Slip ups might be more easily waved aside. The same thing said in a considered posh accent might sound deep & thoughtful to some, but vapid in an essex accent. Tutors might think - oh well, his predicted grades are only AAB, but Westminster always sends us great candidates, so he's worth interviewing.

Neither of these two things necessarily mean the student will end up with a worse degree classification than a slightly more qualified/equally qualified candidate from the state sector. As we all keep saying, the difference academically between those who apply to Oxbridge is not so great, that's why they interview. And the interview is where our collective cultural bias towards the elite comes into play...

Quite a lot of subjects do have a pre-entry test. Bit difficult to check out if someone has a posh accent through a piece of paper... Maybe some people's handwriting is posh, though?!

Also, if you look at the admissions statistics, no wonder private institutions are well represented because they dominate certain subjects. Most comprehensives do not offer Latin or Greek, and if they do it's at a fairly basic level designed to get someone through GCSE. Modern language teaching is largely woeful in the state sector. (Not necessarily teachers' fault - but the need to make it "fun" and "accessible" led to an utterly pointless exam which was just a memory test.) Other subjects too are given a wide berth by state school pupils.

I honestly don't think that admissions people at Oxbridge are rubbing their hands when a posho with floppy hair swaggers through the door.

Mousymary - unless the pre entry tests are anonymised, there's no way to stop instinctual biases for certain schools. Similar to how people with obviously non-White British names are disadvantaged with identical CVs.

HBS, QE Boys & Tiffin all have compulsory Latin. But they still underperform...

I don't think I ever claimed Eton & Westminster had a monopoly on nepotistic oxbridge entrance...happy to make some room for Winchester and New college too!

"Their close relationships with some of the only HE establishments in the country was then totally justified.
It's really not justifiable now."

Alyosha. Winchester and New College were founded by the same person. in the C14th . Things have changed since then. I believe 3 years ago of the approx 30 % who got Oxbridge places , 1 was at New College. I can't argue with your anecdotes, but this one is mine.

Anyway, you believe what you will. I clearly can't convince you.

unless the pre entry tests are anonymised, there's no way to stop instinctual biases for certain schools

You are refusing to listen and refusing to provide evidence for your claims.

BTW some pretests as well as STEP papers (in maths) are marked by teams of graduate students, of whom many are international. They won't have a clue what Westminster is and they won't see the UCAS entry forms for the students. The idea that this marking is biased is utterly ludicrous.

Alyosha why don't you write to the admissions tutor of Christ Church or New College or wherever and put your accusations to them. I am sure that they will be helpful and it would be better to do that than continue disseminating your own bias until you have evidence.
You are relying on heresay and gossip and appear to know very little about the Oxbridge admissions process and the academics involved.

Eton is a global brand name. Westminster less so.

Basilisk - if you can find the % anywhere I would be very interested to see it!

I can only surmise based on my own anecdotal evidence, and so can everyone else, because the only school leaver's list that includes colleges so far was QE boys one.

I do think the fact that Christ's Church is holding alumni events at Westminster does indicate a large proportion of the alumni went to both institutions...although some don't seem to agree.

User615 - evidence? OK, there is a lot of evidence to prove that unconscious bias exists. Identical papers submitted with male names are more likely to get published. CVs with "white" names are more likely to get interviews. Books with male authors are more likely to get agents & to be published.

Middle class kids with identical results & university careers are less likely to get top law/other jobs.

And top state students with good results are less likely to get into Oxbridge and other RG universities, for much the same reasons.

that should read "working class kids" btw.

OK, there is a lot of evidence to prove that unconscious bias exists. Identical papers submitted with male names are more likely to get published. CVs with "white" names are more likely to get interviews. Books with male authors are more likely to get agents & to be published.

Of course unconscious bias exists.

But you have no explanation whatsoever for why international staff, who did not attend UK schools, should be biased towards kids from these schools.

Eton is a global brand but, again, the people marking the pretests do not have access to the UCAS forms saying where the students come from. And non-UK markers would not recognise most private schools/well-known grammars anyhow.

Do you actually want to know what is happening, instead of repeating the same fallacies over and over?

Which % ? Alyosha

OK so assuming this would be the % relevant - and I guess I can google it as well as you

So Winchester has 673 pupils 13 - 18 - so 5 years
So lets say 134.6 in top year. I guess the 0.6 boy is a persistent truant and won't be troubling the Oxbridge interviewers.

According to website they have an average of 32 % Oxbridge admissions per year - so about 42 - 43 per year. Of which I don't think New College ( if my anecdote is correct) at 1 admission shows an institutional bias towards the school.

NB Maths is not my strong point. .

Alyosha
Tutors might think - oh well, his predicted grades are only AAB, but Westminster always sends us great candidates, so he's worth interviewing.

Have you seen Westminster's A level results? 89.91% graded A* or A (or equivalent for IB/Pre-U).
NLCS is 87.91% A*/A (you'll also note that the Telegraph gives pupil numbers as 116).
www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2016/08/26/a-level-results-2016-independent-schools-results-table/

Unfortunately state school league tables only give percentages for A-B grades not A-A.

There really can't be any quarrel with the basic premise that super selective state grammars do significantly less well at Oxbridge entrance than independent schools with an intake of equivalent (or possibly slightly lesser) ability. The students at Oxford know that at the margins less bright independent students get places over brighter grammar school students and that's been the case for years. But nothing Alyosha has said has convinced me that it goes beyond the things I originally said: parental expectations (ie a far smaller proportion of grammar school cohorts applying) and resources (much discussed and undisputed). In addition but as a much smaller point I think some tutors make insufficient allowance for the depressing effect of much tighter finance due to the general antipathy towards grammars and the notion that they too are bastions of middle class privilege (which actually has nothing to do with the issue of lack of resources).

but as a much smaller point I think some tutors make insufficient allowance for the depressing effect of much tighter finance due to the general antipathy towards grammars and the notion that they too are bastions of middle class privilege (which actually has nothing to do with the issue of lack of resources).

Goodbye, I'm being stupid but I don't understand this sentence. Sorry to be slow on the uptake but please could you explain about the depressing effect of much tighter finance.

Sorry it was more than usually convoluted - trying to juggle saucepans....

Trying to provide an education on £4k can't match what's capable of being provided with a minimum of £15 assuming similar leadership.

£15k!