Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

When parents are slagging off the local comp...

779 replies

Everyoneafter3 · 17/04/2017 08:43

I've posted before about my concerns over the local secondary, which, thanks to comments on this board and an excellent recent Ofsted, are very much allayed. I had a very good read of school newsletters etc and am much happier. Dd1 (Y4) is musically gifted and will also audition for a specialist music school.

The area in which we live is very affluent: many children round here go to fee-paying independent schools. These dc are going to school and telling my dd (and others) that the local secondary is rubbish ("my mum and dad say..."). One particularly stupid parent has said at home that "no child of mind will set foot in x school" which of course is coming back home with our dd.

Dd1 has now got it into her head that the local school is terrible, that she's really upset to go to not a good school, that she wishes we weren't poor (we're not! But no, we can't afford independent school fees without having to sacrifice other stuff we prioritise as a family). She's been researching exam results and all sorts.

For our part we've said well look at any local school she'd like to, although as we live across the road from the school in question it'd be unlikely that she'd get in.

I'm heartily sick of parents telling their dc how awful the local school is. It's simply not fair. My dc won't receive a 'lesser' education. They aren't going to a 'rubbish' school. If this continues I'm tempted to speak to their current primary school tbh. What else can I do? I've told dd to not listen, we've looked at the school website, talked about results (!) but I'm at a loss.

OP posts:
MumTryingHerBest · 19/04/2017 22:48

Alyosha - Data is here:

You do realise that report is from 2011?

I provided a link to the University of Oxford website (bear in mind these figures are just for Oxford):

Three year total 2013-2015 (applications, acceptances - acceptance rate & the (%) from the 2011 report)

St Pauls Girls School – 178, 76 – 43% (45.7%)
Westminster – 336, 150 – 45% (44.4%)
The Stephen Perse Foundation – 70, 27 – 39% (41.2%)
St Pauls School, London Sw13– 221, 71 – 32% (35.6%)
North London Collegiate School – 125, 43 – 34% (32.5%)
Winchester College – 184, 71 – 39% (32.4%)
Wycombe Abbey School, High Wycombe – 123, 35 – 28% (32.3%)
Oxford High School GDST – 53, 21 – 40% (31.0%)
Magdalen College School, Oxford – 168, 56 – 33% (29.2%)
Eton College – 446, 155 – 35% (28.1%)

Queen Elizabeth's School, Barnet – 74,19 – 26% (22%)
Colchester Royal Grammar School – 122, 31 – 25% (18.8%)
Reading School – 75, 35 – 47% (16.7%)
Colyton Grammar School – 71, 25 – 35% (15.4%)
Kendrick School – 64, 15 – 23% (15.2%)
The Tiffin Girls School – 64, 15 – 23% (15.2%)
The Latymer School – 96, 29 – 30% (14.7%)
Pate's Grammar School – 149, 56 – 38% (14.7%)
Henrietta Barnett School – 86, 29 – 29% (12.9%)
St Olave's Grammar School – 155, 39 – 25% (12.3%)

the question is why do the most selective schools (Grammars) not get at least the same % as private schools?

The answer appears to be that some of them do, at least for Oxford, unless I reading the data wrong?

Alyosha · 19/04/2017 22:55

Well for comparable data you would need to look at 3 year average, for both Oxford & Cambridge, and filter to Comp/Indie/Selective - so if anyone has that up to 2015 then great!

I don't think 2011 is another land for Oxbridge admissions. In 2016 Oxford actually increase proportion from indies - despite state schools getting better, especially in London.

cowgirlsareforever · 19/04/2017 22:56

In all honesty I could weep looking at that data.

MumTryingHerBest · 19/04/2017 22:57

Alyosha In 2016 Oxford actually increase proportion from indies - despite state schools getting better, especially in London.

Really?

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/oxford-university-state-school-offers-students-highest-private-40-years-a7222446.html

MumTryingHerBest · 19/04/2017 23:34

Alyosha Yes, really:

I suspect the article is referring to the 2015 intake when it mentions "Of its 2015/16 intake" as it also goes on to state “Having made more than 59% of our offers to state-educated applicants for 2016 entry, we are also expecting to retain this increase in 2017."

sendsummer · 20/04/2017 07:34

Alyosha the quantitative metric of A* at A level gives you the top 10% who are best at answering questions on the A level exam syllabus.

Oxbridge have to select a much lower percentage. There will therefore be differentiating factors between the pool of A* candidates. Some of those will be differences in their educational experience such as Westminster type education that allows development of more originality and critical thinking. Some will be raw ability and originality that Oxbridge are looking for.
The eleven plus does not select on originality and probably does n't just for raw ability given the amount of tutoring for the test.

Ontopofthesunset · 20/04/2017 08:14

There are numerous discussions here and elsewhere on the way schools select. You are assuming that all selection methods are equally robust (remember private schools interview and receive reports from primary schools). You are also assuming that the teaching and learning at the grammar schools and the private schools are identical, despite class sizes and teacher pay. Maybe, just maybe, the private schools are using their vast resources to actually deliver a better education, particularly at the very top end where fine distinctions in performance make the difference. Many are offering Pre-U and IB which offer a different type of study.

We don't know the UMS of every student but maybe at the very very top levels which Oxford and Cambridge are choosing between those students are just that tiny differential better.

I don't know how many grammar school students reapply after A level but I know lots of private school students who fail to get an Oxbridge offer post interview but reapply after A levels and get in the second time round. So you've got that factor too.

GetAHaircutCarl · 20/04/2017 08:35

The entrance tests for sixth form at Westminster are tough. They know what they want to see from those applicants and it's not just 'I will do well in my A levels'.

GloriaGilbert · 20/04/2017 08:59

I have no experience with the grammar's selection process, but at W the long-listed boys are invited back for not only an interview, but an afternoon of activities. This is a purposefully opaque process, but from what I gather they observe how the boys approach complex problems.

At Eton, all boys (shortlist, longlist, no list) spend the day with the admissions team. Boys that are waitlisted are called back two years later to do it all over again.

I expect the stakes are much higher for the 'famous' public schools, so they sink their heft into a selection process that seeks the same qualities as Oxbridge.

It's really not a fallacy in London. Latymer, HBS, Tiffin are definitely more selective than SHHS, Habs, Latymer Upper, Highgate. Probably more selective than NLCS & SPGS as well.

But how are you defining 'selective'? It seems like you're just going on numbers, which is meaningless. A prep school will go to great lengths to convince parents not to sit their children for the top schools if they think there's no chance of success. These parents are not going to appear in your data.

I doubt that primary heads are nearly as instrumental.

To say nothing of the fact that the grammars are free, so parents will just take a shot whereas most parents will have to think long and hard about whether they can afford the expense of private education.

Anne2300 · 20/04/2017 09:41

The selection process of top public schools (esp the interview and activities) identifies those with Oxbridge potentials, whereas the tests at grammars only show academic ability. Then top indies, without the financial constraints at state schools, students tend take part in more extracurricular and enrichment activities. This, alongside with small class eizes, experienced tutors to help draft stellar personal statements, family connection to source work experience in competitive fields like medicine and law, make the applicants seem more desirable than their academic equivalents without the add-ons. Now this gap will only be widen further with less money in the state system, and many schools have to cut subjects or increase class sizes. Inequalities continue after they graduate. This doesn't mean that the private education is superior or that the public school boy is more deserving than the state pupil, it just reflects the differences in resources they receive.

user7214743615 · 20/04/2017 10:02

experienced tutors to help draft stellar personal statements

a) It doesn't happen. What does happen is that many/most students take phrases/ideas from the internet so personal statements are often repetitive and not authentic.

b) Personal statements don't play a big role for selective courses that interview.

My experience as a scientist is that many high achieving state school science students have extremely poor skills in writing and communication. So it is not just about other students seeming more desirable - there can be very real gaps in the skills of some students (even when they have very high A level grades in sciences).

Alyosha · 20/04/2017 10:12

MumTrying - over the past 5 years Oxford saw a reduction in state school kids. Perhaps this will be reversed and in another 5 years they will have caught up with Cambridge, we can only hope.

Sendsummer - you have quite literally 0 proof of this. We have people further up the thread with experience of admissions that the only that matters is grades, and that the PS is not worth much, neither is expensive work experience.

Which is it? It would contradict what Oxford & Cambridge say publicly, which is that A level grades across modules are the most important factor.

Ontopof -

There are numerous discussions here and elsewhere on the way schools select. You are assuming that all selection methods are equally robust (remember private schools interview and receive reports from primary schools). You are also assuming that the teaching and learning at the grammar schools and the private schools are identical, despite class sizes and teacher pay. Maybe, just maybe, the private schools are using their vast resources to actually deliver a better education, particularly at the very top end where fine distinctions in performance make the difference. Many are offering Pre-U and IB which offer a different type of study.

Grammar schools say that they have invested a lot of time and money to having the best systems to identify future potential. They would certainly disagree that they are not selecting the brightest!

Grammar schools are harder to get into than private schools in London. I applied to all the grammar schools; the only school I got into was SHHS - similar story for many of my peers. I also went to a state primary school, so don't assume that all private school applicants are coming from prep schools, because they're not.

We don't need to guess about teaching and learning - the excellent A level results of the elite grammar schools tells us all we need to know. We can see that with very similar levels of A* grades, NLCS gets 3-4x the number of girls into Oxbridge that HBS does.

There is no evidence anywhere to show that smaller class sizes positively effect learning & results. And anyway, SHHS had/has class sizes which are around 25 - hardly tiny!

Gloria - OK then, what about NLCS? They don't do that. What about SHHS? What about Habs? What about the deeply mediocre private school Forest, which gets roughly the same number of Oxbridge offers a year as some of the most selective Grammar schools in this country with way way worse A level results?

Are Oxford and Cambridge telling pupils the wrong thing when they say the most important thing is academic success?

But how are you defining 'selective'? It seems like you're just going on numbers, which is meaningless. A prep school will go to great lengths to convince parents not to sit their children for the top schools if they think there's no chance of success. These parents are not going to appear in your data.

The normal way. You know, more applicants per place, kids getting offers from NLCS/SHHS/Habs/Highgate that won't get offers from the elite grammars. Not all pupils at private schools come from prep schools you know...

To say nothing of the fact that the grammars are free, so parents will just take a shot whereas most parents will have to think long and hard about whether they can afford the expense of private education.

In London lots of parents who have kids in private schools at the prep stage will apply to grammars for secondary, and most of the parents at primary schools applying for private schools will also apply to the state grammars. It is much much much harder to get a place at Latymer/HBS/QE Boys than it is to get a place at almost every private school in London.

Of course this is just the unconscious bias, there is still the whole issue of parents donating to colleges & parents who are mates with the admissions tutor getting places for their kids. At least these days you have to offer your friends' children a normal offer and not EE like in the old days!

goodbyestranger · 20/04/2017 10:22

Not going to get too sucked into this thread but there are a whole host of reasons why grammars don't see the same numbers as the top independents of which I'd put parental expectations and very, very, very stretched resources at the top of the list.

goodbyestranger · 20/04/2017 10:23

Incidentally I'm an expert on this :)

KERALA1 · 20/04/2017 10:29

Just been through the application for secondary school - after incidents last year parents in our year group are too scared to even disclose where they have applied to for fear of offending. Quite funny - asking what school someone put down is socially unacceptable akin to asking what you vote or your favourite sexual position.

Alyosha · 20/04/2017 10:39

Great goodbye - considering especially in London the elite grammar schools have a very similar demographic profile to the private schools, what do you think is the reason that NLCS gets 3-4x more pupils into Oxbridge than HBS?

Obviously the resources may be stretched but their A level results are very similar.

user7214743615 · 20/04/2017 10:51

How many times do people have to repeat that top A level results alone are not enough for Oxbridge selection - there is a selection made from those who have the top grades at A level. Unless you know the UMS scores, scores in pretests etc, you cannot say the students are comparable.

goodbyestranger · 20/04/2017 10:54

The parental demographic is very different outside London but much more similar within London, so it's a fair question Alyosha. If you're talking about two specific schools you'd have to look at the specifics within the schools - leadership, quality of teaching for the most able, help given by Oxbridge alumni with applications etc - but very clearly HB has far, far less money to spend on anything additional from the moment those girls enter the door in Y7. It makes a difference. Also perhaps take a look at which students do which subjects. My understanding was that HB is far narrower at A2, or at least it was in the recent past. I'm not convinced that tutors in Oxford and Cambridge fully take into account the degree to which grammars are stretched, so students have high expectations being placed on them at interview and in pre-tests by dint of being privileged without any of (or nothing like) the help and support given at the top independents.

goodbyestranger · 20/04/2017 10:57

I'd also say that no amount of improving access for entry into grammars will count for much unless the same amount of effort and expertise is put in at the exit end, for entry to top universities.

user7214743615 · 20/04/2017 11:01

I'm not convinced that tutors in Oxford and Cambridge fully take into account the degree to which grammars are stretched.

Most academics have their own children at state schools. They have no illusions about the lack of resources. Many also spend time doing outreach work across a wide range of schools. And then we run residentials for kids from schools all around the country. And we teach the students when they arrive. I really don't think we're under illusions about what is going on in different schools.

On the other hand, I am very far from convinced that kids from schools at HB would be disadvantaged at interview etc. Many come from highly educated, very supported families, who have influenced their extra-curricular and co-curricular education strongly from birth.

BTW the London selective schools are still on average able to provide more support for very high ability children than Oxbridge academics' children get in the Oxford/Cambridge comps. (Comps which by definition do cater for the full ability range.)

goodbyestranger · 20/04/2017 11:13

Well user615 not that many (!) Oxbridge resources are diverted to grammar outreach and you yourself say that you don't think HB students are at a disadvantage viv a vis kids educated at top independents, things which don't especially contradict my point. I also recall that in a previous thread you said that your own DC are at an independent school because you felt the local selective state school wouldn't have catered sufficiently for them either in terms of the curriculum or outside of it.

goodbyestranger · 20/04/2017 11:14

Also, most Oxford academics seem to send their kids to independent selectives, in my experience....

user7214743615 · 20/04/2017 11:19

I'm in the minority though - most of my department don't send to private schools (and couldn't afford to). BTW I don't currently do admissions either.

It's true that RG outreach in general does not target grammars. But at the same time quite a few outreach events are hosted in grammars - for example, events supporting teaching of maths or science in secondary schools.

What I have said repeatedly was that one has to look at each case carefully. A kid from HB who shows every sign in their application of being very heavily supported (lots of evidence of co-curricular and enrichment activities, opportunities to go to summer schools, attending lots of events in London related to the subject etc) has to be viewed as differently from a kid from a low achieving school who has had none of these opportunities.

What is being advocated by some on this thread is removing academic judgement, due to the assumption that academics would be biased in favour of private schools/would not be aware of what is going on in state schools. This is really very far from the reality, when most academics have their own children in state schools and are actually often quite opposed to private schools.

user7214743615 · 20/04/2017 11:21

most Oxford academics seem to send their kids to independent selectives, in my experience....

I'm sorry but this just cannot be true - you are extrapolating from a small number of cases (even with 6 kids at Oxford). Academic salaries are just not high enough to pay for private education. A typical academic couple of around 40 aren't going to earn more than 120k gross between them. They can't afford school fees at 2 x15k, given the house prices in Oxford and Cambridge.

Swipe left for the next trending thread