Tories pour millions into new grammars while state schools discuss the possibility of a 4 day week

[noblegiraffe]

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/07/theresa-may-unveils-plans-new-generation-grammar-schools/

In a cowardly move, the Tories are publishing their White Paper on grammars before publishing the responses to the Green Paper which, the best thing Justine Greening could say about them was that they were 'not overwhelmingly negative'.

What a bunch of fucking shite. And where are they going to get the thousands of pounds required for free transport for golden ticket poor kids? The only potential money-saver here is that we know that the vast majority of poor kids don't get into grammars. Why not save this money and put it into the school that the poor kid would be going to originally? Then everyone would win, including the poor kid who isn't faced with a long commute, the poor kid who didn't get into the grammar, and the 90% of kids who aren't 'grammar material' (decided by a faulty test which puts kids in the wrong school aged 10) who would see more investment in their education which is desperately needed at the moment.

Really frustratingly, the government has removed the ability to sort by %PP from the new performance data from the website, which makes it hard for me to recreate the search that I did a year or so back to show you.

I do absolutely take your point about some leafy comps having lower %PP than selectives in more deprived areas (though not from selectives in their own area)

I do wonder what would happen if a single change was made to admissions so that ALL schools in a defined area (e.g. a large town or wide rural area) should admit the % FSM / PP that was average for the area, regardless of how large that made the catchment / low the effective 11+ result became for such children. There might be perverse incentives for parents to tactically become unemployed for the final couple of years of primary, though....

goodbyestranger Thu 09-Mar-17 10:34:08 Mum, for our school a parent could live literally anywhere in the world (provided their child is/ will be entitled to education in the UK) and not be at a disadvantage over the parent who bought the house across the road from the school gates.

The only way that could be true is if they have a place to offer every DC that applies for a place or they allocate on lottery. Is that the case with your school?

"FSM rates at grammar schools are increasing."

Well, apart from where they are decreasing. As they are in two other grammar schools not a million miles from us.

Are you specifically talking about the Birmingham grammar schools?

As a single parent I don't have the choice to send my DC to a private school. I also don't have the choice to send my DC to nearest outstanding comp as I can't afford a very expensive house a few hundred meters from it. I also don't have the choice to send my DC to the second nearest outstanding comp because we are not Catholic. So my DC get on a bus and travel past 2 comps to get to a not very good school.

That school imo has enough teachers and facilities to do the job, its just not very good because the majority of the children come from families that don't really give a crap about education.

All parents do have the choice to read with their children every day and, god forbid, actually make learning fun and interesting before they even get to school and then to help them with homework/study every night.

I think having the option of sending my DC to a Grammar if they are academic enough is a good thing. The travelling is not an issue, a bus to a school 5 miles away is hardly different to a bus to a school 10+ miles away. And if they are not extremely academic I would hope getting in to the nearest outstanding comp is increased because all the wealthy 'elite' have decamped to the Grammar.

Distance to school only counts for the last place offered at a super selective grammar school assuming more than one candidate has the same last place score.

We crossed posts. What I agree with is the need to shake up (or continue to shake up) admissions and to focus on access to grammars. I do also think that leafy comps are inherently even less accessible to disadvantaged kids than grammars and I can't see how buying in the catchment is fair at all, on any level.

But I happen to think selective education is appropriate for the higher achievers and I don't see that setting in comps is morally superior in any way, if morals come into it. As a previous poster said, the sets in comps become stratified socially too, as things stand. At the other end of the scale I think kids who have no interest in academic subjects should be freed from this absurd straight jacket of GCSEs, particularly now that the new specifications are geared towards the more able. I can't see that after seven years of formal education it's too soon to direct the most academically able towards schools where the pace of learning is faster and to provide them with the skills and base that the more competitive unis are looking for. That doesn't in any way imply that the less academically able should have less spent on them or less good provision; it should simply be more targeted.

I'm glad you took the point about Birmingham from a much earlier thread Bert. The Birmingham model is the direction of travel. I'm not sure extrapolating from the Kent schools is especially useful.

No-one ever addresses the very strong movement towards opening up these grammars to disadvantaged students, to prioritizing them in the offer list, to the outreach in primary schools - actively identifying the high achievers in primary schools and trying to provide educational support and to encouraging their parents to apply.

What exactly is being done and where? I see someone mentions the half-hearted attempt in Bucks. Do other schools pick out children on FSM and put on extra tutorial classes?

goodbye I'm not giving details about my school because there is a poster on these threads who collates them and tries to identify the school.

You can't say that it's impossible for poor kids to access particular schools when the FSM rate at those schools is not zero.

bojorojo Thu 09-Mar-17 10:43:04 I am rather glad the cut off distances are less. It means children who live nearer are getting in and not being driven in from neighbouring counties. Many would like to see Bucks schools for Bucks children.

I agree. It's quite shocking how many DCs are travelling up to two hours each way to their Grammar Schools (one of the reasons, or so I'm told, Tiffin introduced a catchement).

noble confirming leafy comp in no way identifies you although I have some sympathy with determined posters who insist on trying to out people - one poster even thought it was ok to give one of my DCs' GCSE results out! Extraordinary. Though I recognised the poster in real life so Ha! Anyhow, they aren't important, your own details, but I'm sure you concede the point that leafy comps have social issues all of their own.

Aargh - no I don't have sympathy with the determined posters, I have sympathy with you!

Clavinova Thu 09-Mar-17 10:59:31 Distance to school only counts for the last place offered

Exactly. Few parents are confident that their DC will have scored high enough to get into a SS until they actually have the exam results. That is why a fair number move whilst their DC is in yr 4 or yr 5 of primary.

Mum it's the last place in the event of there being a tie - it's pretty niche! Not the sort of thing to buy a house over!

goodbyestranger Thu 09-Mar-17 11:17:52 but I'm sure you concede the point that leafy comps have social issues all of their own.

I don't. It has nothing to do with them being a "leafy comp." It is because they are exclusive and get the best results (often because they are exclusive). How many "Leafy comps" have 2,000 DCs trying to get a place there (The approx. number of DCs sitting for SS QE Barnet)? I think the social issues with leafy comps. are also reflected in the Grammar Schools.

Perhaps you have access to research that suggests the "leafy comps" have a lower FSM than Grammars? I heavy suspect they will be pretty similar.

Using the argument that more Grammars will mean more FSM DCs will get a chance to attend one can be used for "leafy comps." More "leafy comps." means more places and therefore more DCs can attend.

goodbyestranger Thu 09-Mar-17 11:35:24 Mum it's the last place in the event of there being a tie - it's pretty niche! Not the sort of thing to buy a house over!

I've lived here 26 years. When DCs move from state primaries to preps in years 2,3,4 the places are filled by DCs moving into the area for the secondary schools. Moving for a selective schools place is far from niche.

goodbyestranger Thu 09-Mar-17 11:35:24 Not the sort of thing to buy a house over!

Feel free to let this OP know that they don't need to move:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/education/2872634-Buckinghamshire-or-Hertfordshire

According to Sutton Trust average proportion of disadvantaged pupils at the "best" comps is 9.4% .

www.suttontrust.com/newsarchive/85-of-top-comprehensives-with-best-gcses-are-socially-selective-but-schools-where-pupils-make-most-progress-are-much-less-so/

Its very interesting on how Progress 8 has changed the list of top 500 schools.

I'm not a 'linker' Mum. I've never linked to anything on MN and I don't intend to start. It's far too easy to be selective :)

I don't use the argument that more grammars means more places for disadvantaged DC - I haven't said that. Obviously, up to a point it's true, but more places created generally have to be seen in the context of all the initiatives designed to attract those DCs to the grammars in the first place including the dispelling of cultural myths, supporting them during the primary years so that they do well enough in the tests, prioritizing them on the admissions list and enabling them to attend with the provision of free transport and other financial packages too. There really is nothing here which the elite universities haven't been doing for years - exactly the same principles, for the same reasons. It's been a long while coming and it will take a while to see significant success, as is so often the case with any strategy - lack of overnight success doesn't mean a thing isn't worth doing however.

Mum I think it was clear that I was referring to the situation where the only advantage of living closer to a school is for the last place in the event of a tied score. That is pretty niche.

goodbyestranger Thu 09-Mar-17 12:02:19 the initiatives designed to attract those DCs to the grammars in the first place including the dispelling of cultural myths

Bucks is opt out. Given the low number of FSM DCs in the Bucks Grammars are you of the opinion that most FSM DCs opt out and don't sit the exam?

goodbyestranger Thu 09-Mar-17 12:05:16 the only advantage of living closer to a school is for the last place in the event of a tied score. That is pretty niche.

My previous post made it quite clear that most parents don't know how well their DCs did in the exam until they get the scores. This is why they move whilst their DC is in yr 3 or 4 of primary school (some move in yr 5 but deadlines for moving into catchment can present a problem then).

No one knows for certain what the cut off score will be and as in some areas it goes up each year, parents don't want to take the risk.

My DC was in the top 5 of his year group of 60. I had not idea where he would be in an examined co-hort of 3,800.

Have you actually been through the 11 plus process yourself?

Yes Mum I took the 11+ myself and was one of the top five scorers in Surrey I believe, and got the offer of two direct grants places to two separate GDST schools in South London on the back of it.

I also have eight children who have all taken and passed the 11+ for our local superselective at intervals since 2000.

I'm not sure that either fact qualifies me to tell Bucks/ Herts parents what to do in terms of housing though.

"Perhaps you have access to research that suggests the "leafy comps" have a lower FSM than Grammars?"

Very anecdotal. One of the 'very leafy, low PP' 'comprehensives' mentioned by Clavinova is in a town with a grammar school, so their PP can be directly compared:

Pupils eligible for free school meals at any time during the past 6 years
Pates Grammar School = 1.6%
Balcarras = 8%

Other grammar schools in the area (though in a much less leafy city)
Sir Thomas Rich: 3.8%
The Crypt School: 6.1%
High School for Girls: 4.6%
Ribston Hall: 7.2%

So even the leafiest of leafy high performing 'comprehensives' (if that is the correct term for the 'other' school in a grammar area) has higher FSM than any of the grammars, even those in the less leafy neighbouring city.

If there wasn't a problem then grammar school heads and government wouldn't need to address it, can'tkeepawayforever.