Why do ALL the pupils at my kids' school hate French??

[kitnkaboodle]

Languages were my Thing at school and I still use them in my job. I'm aghast that every single kid from the school that I talk to hates French - it's 'up' there with RE as the most unpopular. All they ever report that they've done is grammar and translation over n over. I don't know if it's the fault of the syllabus or the (two) teachers. They seem to v rarely do any listening to recordings/watching videos etc, and NEVER seem to do any speaking practice. When I asked them if they ever do stuff like doing role plays pretending they're in a restaurant or suchlike, they literally didn't understand what I meant. What's going on?? Kids in Y8 and Y10 (yes, doing it for GCSE - in the interests of doing a broad range of subjects. Partially own choice, partially on the advice of teachers.)

equivalent of my gsce's and A-levels and I still had 4 hours of my mother tongue, 4 hours of Latin, 4 hours of French, 3 hours of English and 2 hours of German a week

Really? I'd be well upset if I was back at 6-form doing the usual 3 or 4 A levels but was expected to spend 17 hours ( so at least two days) a week studying superfluous subjects. Were there exams as well, or were these just lessons which you could ignore?

Bensyster, the people I mentioned went to a mix of schools and universities. Some went to state school followed by Oxbridge, some to state school followed by other universities, some to private school followed by Oxbridge, some to private school followed by other universities. Some I met at university when studying languages, some I've met later.

I'm sure there is a problem with language teaching in some schools and the current GCSE syllabus doesn't help, but I'm so bewildered by the reductive and insular views on this thread of the benefits of learning other languages.

My friend who's a diplomat (state school, non-Oxbridge) uses languages all the time and has constantly learned new ones over his career. My friend who's an office manager (state school, Cambridge) doesn't use her languages at work but uses them to enrich her life. I don't use my languages directly in my job but use them every day in one way or another.

In my final year of secondary school (17-18 years old), I had the above mentioned subjects + 4 hours of mathematics, 2 hours of physics, 1 hour of biology, 1 hour of chemistry, 1 hour of geography, 2 hours of history, 2 hours of RE, 1 hour of PE and 1 hour of Greek philosophy. We have exams in all those subjects. If you fail any subject you don't receive a diploma, so you can't go to university. My husband nearly missed the opportunity to study History at uni because he failed his mathematics exam. He had to sit it again.
My classmates went on to become lawyers, doctors, mathematicians, translators, linguists, engineers, scientists, a captain on a ship, architects, etc

What can I say Ontopofthesunset My friends are lawyers, accountants, management consultants, it consultants, financial analysts, teachers and doctors and none of them use foreign languages except for holidays abroad.
Without a doubt there is much to be gained by learning languages if that is your passion....for many it isn't and they don't mourn the lack of them.
I taught myself a foreign language and I very much enjoyed the challenge and the pleasure of communicating in the language when we travelled but my adult learning experience differed enormously from my secondary school learning. I was able to self direct, I was able to learn conversational until I felt the need to understand and then I'd dip into grammar and I was able to immerse when I felt ready. The internet is an incredible resource for language learning. The fear of failure was at times overwhelming but it was so commonly talked about in the language community that I like most accepted it was part of the process. I think learning a language at school is tricky because you can't go at your own pace, you are taught in the learning style dictated by your teacher and I suspect for many it doesn't suit - or maybe it was just me!.

My friend who's a diplomat (state school, non-Oxbridge) uses languages all the time and has constantly learned new ones over his career. My friend who's an office manager (state school, Cambridge) doesn't use her languages at work but uses them to enrich her life. I don't use my languages directly in my job but use them every day in one way or another.

Not wanting to be difficult or dismissive, but for the majority of kids I've taught (except maybe when I was in a private school) the concept of enriching one's life through intellectual pursuits purely because it's enjoyable or a noble aim is not really on their radar, and the kinds of jobs most of them will do are very unlikely to involve foreign languages.

Is that a bit defeatist? Yes. But it is how most kids seem to feel. And generally it's not down to lack of enthusiasm or effort on the teachers' part. Mfl teachers have chosen to teach languages because they love languages and are good at them. We all start our careers hoping to pass on our love of languages and enthusiasm for the culture of other countries (as well as the wonderful complexities of the imperfect subjunctive .

People talk about languages being all about cultural enrichment and getting to know about other countries. We try to convey that, but it's not in the exam and it's hard enough getting most kids through the syllabus. No doubt science lessons should be all about the wonders of the universe, but again, the syllabus is the syllabus.

the concept of enriching one's life through intellectual pursuits purely because it's enjoyable or a noble aim is not really on their radar, and the kinds of jobs most of them will do are very unlikely to involve foreign languages.

I think you have pinned down all the social and economic problems facing Britain in that paragraph.

I guess it's a bit like all those people who never read books. I read to enrich my life, not in any great noble sense, but because what is the point of living if you don't keep finding stuff out?

And it does raise a big question about what school is for and why we keep on teaching the same old 19th century subjects.

I wasn't suggesting you had to study languages to do any of those jobs, just that you didn't have to be a teacher!

Most of what you learn at school isn't particularly relevant in the sense that you will use it frequently in life or in your job. History, geography, science... I learned pretty much all the maths I use in my daily life by Y7. I can read a balance sheet, do my tax returns, calculate VAT and interest but I never use calculus or simultaneous equations.

So I don't think l think languages are any more worthwhile than other school subjects I don't understand why they are seen as less worthwhile by children who mostly won't be using electrolysis or fractional distillation in their jobs either.

the concept of enriching one's life through intellectual pursuits purely because it's enjoyable or a noble aim is not really on their radar, and the kinds of jobs most of them will do are very unlikely to involve foreign languages.

Apart from the idle rich, when has education ever been about this? State-funded schools evolved from religious places of 'instruction' through 19 century schooling to provide a useful work-force, onto 20th and 21st century pathways into employment. Just read countless threads on MN about parent's worries about academic achievement and goal-based learning, hopefully leading towards well-paid jobs.

The place for hobbies like language has sadly been removed from the educational landscape - it used to be provided, and funded, in the night-class and 'adult' education sector, sadly gone and forgotten now.

I agree with so much that has been said so far about languages opening up new intellectual horizons and different ways of viewing the world. I find languages challenging and exciting though I've rarely used them at work and my attempts to use them on holiday have been mixed (but always rewarding)

One thing that isn't emphasised much but ought to be is that operating in an unfamiliar language can build empathy. In your own language you may be fabulously capable but in French/Spanish/whatever you are a blithering idiot unable to ask for a glass of water without floundering. You are much more reliant on the good will of strangers. That is an experience that should be relished by anyone hoping to work in health and social care, policy, education, or really anything at all public-facing.

Does it reflect a wider culture here, with less bilingual people. A very general expectation that 'the other person' speaks English? Languages are taught later, without any expectation that the child will be semi-fluent. Parents (generally) don't speak another language and whilst encouraging kids to do their best, often are less worried about language development and acquisition?

kids seem to hate learning french WAY MORE than they do other languages. It's not about not wanting to learn a language.

Well, not in my experience - liking for or antipathy towards languages seems to be fairly evenly distributed across the languages, and the children I know seem either to like them generally, with individual favourites, or dislike them generally and do the one they're best at under sufferance. French is quite easy, though not as easy as Spanish. German, for example, is much harder if only because of the cases and the word order.

Sorry I got carried away with the reasons. oP don't give up! Is the message I meant to say. For all the reasons posters have said. Our MFL department have swung the tide partially (the kids didn't like the subject or staff), they have nailed the staff bit, with their obvious love of languages and infectiousness. They have broaden the subject appeal generally (kids now like it in lower school), they are working on 'selling' it to the kids/parents about why it's useful (have forwarded this thread to them), and should be more than just 'forced' on the majority as part of EBaCc. However current and future GCSE isn't filling them with optimism.
I really like the skills approach mentioned, rather than academic. Something we will use going forward.

Viva languages (am not a linguist, clearly), hope that means what I think it does. 😉

But the French teacher seemed more desperate to convince my dcs that french was a career enhancing option, never once asked if they enjoyed French - it seemed that even she had given up on the idea that a language could be enjoyable to learn - and it wasn't the first time I had heard her try to convince students to study her subject by trying to make it sound like it was more career worthy. The Geography and RE teachers for example, simply enquired whether my dcs we're interested in the subject and consequently enquired whether they would be taking the subject on to GCSE.
BTW my dcs are taking GCSE French, we have tried to fire up their love of languages via French cinema and trips to France, because if you don't feel a connection with the country, how can you feel learning the language is worthwhile. I
And while my dcs are many things - learning a language for intellectual pleasure would seem ludicrous to them - it may come to them in their later years but as teenagers it's all about exams and grades and subjects they like - they are a product of the education system as it is.

Really, amidawsh? I've never found that at all. German is often perceived as hard, Spanish as easier and French as somewhere in the middle. But I can't say I've ever seen a particular dislike of French compared with other languages in any of the many schools I've taught in.

Some people may enjoy using their French or Spanish on holiday, but even I think its usefulness is overstated, unless you are planning to limit your holidays to countries whose languages you learned at school, or are going to buy a holiday house in France or Spain. It's all very well accusing people of being arrogant and insular in not being bothered to learn languages, and going abroad expecting people to speak English, but how many languages do you expect people to learn? I wonder what percentage of people ever actually use their GCSE MFL for anything more complicated than a basic restaurant or shop transaction (which, let's face it, they could easily learn from a phrase book the week before their holiday, as they would need to if they were in a country whose language they'd never learnt at school).

I always loved the grammar, the culture, the literature etc but I have learnt that this puts me in a minority.

But MFL teachers try and push the 'it will be useful' point because if kids do see languages as difficult and not enjoyable, usefulness is the last carrot we can dangle.

The other reason lots of kids hate languages is quite simply that lots of kids already do not like speaking out in lessons in their own language. Doing so in another language and attempting a foreign accent makes it nigh on unbearable if you're a bit shy or lacking in confidence.

I have not noticed French hated more than other languages at all. In fact it's probably the most common second language in English schools. All my children did French GCSE except one who did German instead and I did both (and Geman A level).

In the US, Spanish is a very important second language to have. My private midwestern school had us start with French, but should really have started us with Spanish. Being able to read Moliere in the original text was completely unhelpful when working in A&E with a patient community of Mexican and Central American immigrants who spoke no English and support staff whose principal language was Spanish.

Surprisingly, the teaching I did have in French I did have was excellent, despite teachers being not native speakers. Far better than the teaching my son is getting in his super selective school with native teachers! My accent is subtle and I was able to spend a year at a French University without much difficulty. My son's accent, despite having a French passport, is abysmal and his written progress is not much better.

The other reason lots of kids hate languages is quite simply that lots of kids already do not like speaking out in lessons in their own language. Doing so in another language and attempting a foreign accent makes it nigh on unbearable if you're a bit shy or lacking in confidence.

That's very true. I've heard it said that English people tend to be able to speak French better if a little tipsy and disinhibited, unfortunately schoolkids can't benefit from this effect. DD only managed her german oral on the second attempt having totally clammed on the first try after the teacher said she'd seen her act in the school play, just act that you're a person speaking german.

This thread has been enlightening, thanks. I can empathise with so many teens bored in language lessons. I moved abroad as a teen and prior to that had had a good 6 years of French lessons in the UK. When I arrived abroad I couldn't even ask another child their name. I was fluent within 6 months. I have considered teaching in the past, and spent some time in schools and I have to admit I can understand why kids drop languages. The few hours I observed in lessons a few years back were so dull I was twiddling my thumbs as an adult. The teachers were at their wits end trying to get kids to engage and the kids had all but switched off. It was all about learning just enough to pass an exam. When I moved abroad English was widely spoken, and when you spoke French with an accent the reply would come in English but for some reason I loved it and wanted to learn it. My siblings had the same time there and the same lessons and none of them are fluent now. I think with languages you have to really want it. You have to want to watch films and musicals, listen to music, read books and so on. To be told a few rules of grammar from a textbook trying too hard to be cool isn't going to do it. I don't think as a teacher I could maintain a level of passion that would continue to engage students after a few months. So many of the teens I observed were just embarrassed that their accent was poor, without realising that that's not a fixed thing. I wish schools taught languages well from a younger age. So many wonderful nursery rhymes, books, comics, TV shows that could be used and make it a wonderful opportunity to learn. Taking 30 year 9s and trying to teach them how to say 'I mowed the lawn today' really isn't all that thrilling. I felt so sad for the pupils I observed bored out of their minds.

In fact it's probably the most common second language in English schools.

Probably because all schools teach it, starting in year 9. It's a lottery whether schools offer German and/or Spanish and they start it a year later. Virtually no schools offer Italian or other languages. I think with French being the default language taught, for longer, and a MFL being compulsory in most schools, it's pretty much inevitable that French is the most common language - not due to kids wanting to learn it, but because it's the path of least resistance.

The trouble is, there just isn't time to immerse kids in the culture side of things, spend time watching films, looking at art and food and all that as well as teach them the language.

It would be lovely to think that they could absorb the language through looking at comics and tv shows etc but it just doesn't work that way unless you are doing it all day every day. If you don't drill the vocab and grammar fairly thoroughly they will simply not be able to string sentences together.

I think it is useful to "sell" a MFL as career enhancing, but this will not be the case at GCSE level. Later on, it is. The state system is failing linguists. Often, only one language can be taken at GCSE. This is useless for linguists. Schools do not seem to be able to pool language classes by using a variety of teachers in a variety of schools therefore opening up possibilities. There is also a ridiculous notion that you only study a language if you want to use it for work or a holiday. Neither matter that much. You do languages because they show you are pretty bright, can study a difficult subject successfully, and have put in the necessary effort to be good!

My children were lucky and attended a private school where languages were taken seriously and well taught. Fewer and fewer state educated children are opting for language degrees. Very many cannot take two MFL A levels to do joint honours degrees in MFL without doing one as ab initio thereby limiting options. Universities are competing for the same decent students. These degrees have the advantage of studying different cultures, literature, and picking up skills. The fact that most people see these skills as difficult to acquire certainly can help in the jobs market.

The need to be well educated is important and the need to be challenged is also important. We know lots of children like to take the easier subjects and will not spend the time and effort that acquiring another language entails.The same applies to learning a musical instrument. It takes time and considerable effort. Children just do not want to make the effort and parents do not see the advantages either.

Empressofthemundane : I agree with your posting of yesterday.

The problem when I was at school was that French got taught (generally badly) from years 3,4,6,7,8,9 depending on what school you;d been in. By the time we were in year 10 and choosing GCSE options, I'd done the first year of learning French four times and was embarking on my third go-round of second-year French. Even if the teacher hadn't been terrible (she didn't even notice my skiving off for another term and a half), it would have been pretty boring, even in the top set.

Meanwhile we started German in Y9 (not set by ability) and the teacher managed to make it real simply by translating anything anyone said into German and making us write it down in little books (by page 3 these included useful phrases like '"Oh for god's sake" and "I've lost my contact lens!", and vocab tests were tests on the contents of said books as well as whatever we'd been asked to learn.

What switched most of us onto learning a language and finding it useful was being sent on language exchange trips - we weren't given a choice but were dumped in a familiy's home in France/Germany/Spain, went to school there for a week, and had to cope in a strange household who spoke no English. Day trips as a class to France were pretty pointless for learning French (helped with map reading and transport skills I suppose), and the exchanges where a whole class goes together and hardly speaks any of the destination language don't seem to help much (my school did those in addition as an option). A couple hours getting a monologue from my host mother, with a dictionary on the table, every day for a fortnight - that was crucial.

As pp said, one of the key benefits of learning a language is acquiring empathy when dealing with people in English who don't speak it well - and improving your ability at guessing what they might be trying to say. Understanding bad English is a skill too.