Why do ALL the pupils at my kids' school hate French??

[kitnkaboodle]

Languages were my Thing at school and I still use them in my job. I'm aghast that every single kid from the school that I talk to hates French - it's 'up' there with RE as the most unpopular. All they ever report that they've done is grammar and translation over n over. I don't know if it's the fault of the syllabus or the (two) teachers. They seem to v rarely do any listening to recordings/watching videos etc, and NEVER seem to do any speaking practice. When I asked them if they ever do stuff like doing role plays pretending they're in a restaurant or suchlike, they literally didn't understand what I meant. What's going on?? Kids in Y8 and Y10 (yes, doing it for GCSE - in the interests of doing a broad range of subjects. Partially own choice, partially on the advice of teachers.)

I much preferred German - and Italian.

I think it's because they're both phonetic languages whereas Spanish and French are not, so they are more difficult to learn - and you don't hear the ends of words etc.

DS is learning Spanish and has done a bit of German at home and with our German friends. He doesn't know any French.

I forgot to say earlier that while I did 3 years of French at school, I can barely string a sentence together. I did 4 or possibly only 3 years of German and 30 years later I can still confidently come up with coherent sentences if I know the vocab. The rules have me a framework.

All they ever report that they've done is grammar and translation over n over.

That's the bit that I liked. I hated the oral bit - how can you attempt a French accent without feeling a complete nincompoop? A gallic lilt does not sit well with an English tongue, it's too embarrassingly flamboyant for a teenager.
I'm glad that I did a language, though. Seeing another language through the eyes of a stranger helps you appreciate your own language all the more.

French is not a particularly difficult language to learn and its pronunciation is very regular and straightforward - much more regular than English. I think the structure of GCSEs in MFLs make teaching seem dull and the languages seem pointless. There is a lot of rote learning and often the grammar is taught really poorly so the students are unable to extrapolate. At my sons' school they teach very well and already at GCSE he's reading Maupassant. Mind you, he likes languages and will be doing two at A level.

dd does french, spanish & latin
hates french (her worst subject)
likes spanish
loves latin

apparently she doesn't like the "sound" of french and doesn't like speaking it.

interesting to hear she's not alone and i don't think it's the teacher - plenty of role plays etc

"There is a lot of rote learning and often the grammar is taught really poorly so the students are unable to extrapolate"

this is true in dd's case.

I did French, German & Latin at school - hated French & dropped it as soon as I could. I liked Latin best (it seemed logical & there wasn't so much pressure with pronunciation) but carried on with German because we had to do a MFL. It was a complete waste of time, I absolutely hated speaking it.

DD actually enjoyed French to start with (she pretty much likes everything) & didn't complain too much about having to do a MFL. Now with GCSEs a few months away she wishes she'd done something else. She's learnt very little that she can actually use - extra work makes no difference because beyond learning some vocab and passages by rote they don't learn 'rules' that can be generally applied, it is discouraging. She's even got hold of old style O level books to try & make sense of it but as someone said earlier it just seems to be lists of exceptions. She'll probably get a B (compared to A* in pretty much everything else) & a couple of hours a week for five years will have been a waste - she should've done drama instead!

I'm sure it is a lazy cop out but I put languages in the same category as music - great if you've got natural skill & flare or a burning desire to immerse yourself in it. Otherwise ... meh ...

DS does 2 languages (including French) for GCSE. DD is choosing the one that isn't French.

The GCSE is changing, but up to and including this year there is a LOT of memorise / reproduce work for both speaking and writing. The other language DS studies has already shifted to (or has always been) live oral + unseen writing paper, which he does find MUCH more interesting and useful. The new GCSE in French will be shifting to this type of 'unseen, unprepared' option.

DD has selected the other language because she finds it more logical - possibly because she started it at secondary, beginning with the grammar, so really understands how it works. She did French for years in primary and that started with lots of games /oral work and very little underpinning.

At least 1 language GCSE was in the 'non-negotiable' category for us - it is such a different 'type' of learning and mental approach from other subjects that we thought it was important for both our DCs to experience it. They may never use these specific languages in future, but the skills are applicable to any language they need to learn in the future. I have Latin and french O-levels, and the general 'approach' has seen be be able to get by at least in deciphering Italian, German, Spanish, even if never to speak any of them with any fluency.

Dh was offered a very senior position (interviewed by the French CEO) in a French company who own UK based companies - never once did they discuss his ability to speak French. There was a passing mention of the opportunity to learn French if he was interested. Dh does have an O Level in French - but they didn't know that, he'd never put his O Levels on his CV. I really doubt languages are that useful to the majority of people in the UK.
I studied French at school for 3 years - we never did role play...all vocabulary and grammar, it was pretty useless.

all vocabulary and grammar, it was pretty useless.

Language is vocabulary and grammar. You wouldn't get very far without it. How would you post on Mumsnet if you didn't know what words to use and what order to put them in? Or how would you even carry on a conversation?

And as to languages being 'too hard' - most things that are worth doing are difficult at some point. That shouldn't be a reason to give up.

HarrietVane99 ok I'll be more explicit! All we did was learn lists of vocabulary and verbs. No listening practice, no conversation/role play, no translations/dictation. We were not practiced in the art of communication. Putting vocab and grammar together to converse and communicate easily takes practice and we didn't get any. I'm sure those who found languages easy could do this more readily but it's not as simple as recall. Application of knowledge is a tricky thing to master and learning lists is no way to do it!

My child was really hating it because it was making no sense. Pronunciation is not obvious for a start and that has been mentioned. Next up is non formal grammar , communicative method. It felt so random as to be impossible. We sat and I went through ER verb present tense and that has had a positive impact by giving a feeling of mastery - even though it's a tiny piece.

I don't hold out much hope longer term as there are no exchanges. For the brief interlude of a trip my child has worked out that they would use a smartphone to translate!

My post is hard to decipher, so trying again:

One problem has been that my child has felt overwhelmed by the communicative approach. Showing some of the underlying structure and then a bit of rote learning of the present tense of regular ER verb has made it LESS stressful.

Daffodils,

DD would agree with you. With the laguage she has learned in a more 'formal' language (alphabet, spelling, grammar, then vocabulary for different contexts) she has a framework to hang the communication on. Where she just has the 'pieces of communication' - words and phrases of French learned in an informal / 'enjoyable' way in primary - then she doesn't have the underlying structure to put it together confidently.

On the other hand, DS is a 'plunge in and have a go' character, who has been equally happy with either approach.

I adored French at school and did a degree in it. But I have to say I was the only one! Everyone else hated it.

To be fair, the syllabus was quite boring and I did a lot of teaching myself through general interest.

can'tkeepawayforever (or anyone): my DS will be sitting his GCSE next year - 2018. Does that mean he will be doing the more 'unseen' type exam and less of the memorising passages? Hope so - if only because it seems a better way to test ability.

Anyone else remember learning the '100 questions' for O level?? What on earth was that all about??

Dd loves French, Geography is the hated lesson with her and her friends this year much like History was last year. The common denominator is the teacher, could it be the same in your dc's school?

But the thing about pronunciation is that it's not obvious in any language. It's just different in French from English. But it's different again in German, Dutch, Spanish, Italian etc. So 'au' in English is usually like Autumn or August, in French quite similar but more of an 'oh' sound, but in German it's 'ow'. 'Eu' in English is usually like Europe but in French it is 'ur' (non-rhotic) and in German 'oy'. Every language has its own set of sound-letter correspondences, so French is very straightforward to read once you know them. Perhaps teachers don't explain it well.

KS3 and GCSE French are to the authentic French language what a UHT long life milk is to raw milk from the farm... what a Big Mac is to an entrecôte from the butcher... what a frozen boxed pizza is to a fresh Neapolitan pizza...

The teaching of French and Spanish has been done at school with no explanation of pronunciation. This is primary and I think they don't want to overwhelm them and the focus has been mainly on spoken language.

In the small amount t of written work my child has managed to work out the logic of the Spanish pronunciation but is flailing about with French. Then they have written signs in French about the school which are perceived as gobbledygook!

It's a personality thing as a previous poster notes they have a child who isn't bothered by the ambiguities!

Why Bobochic? It is the same language after all

You cannot work out the pronunciation of French from written language. With Spanish, however, you more or less can, providing you have the basic sounds.

Freddorika - not really!

"I really doubt languages are that useful to the majority of people in the UK."

Interesting - I would say of all the subjects I studied at school, languages have been some of the most useful to me, even though I didn't go beyond O level. I guess because (in two completely different industries) I've often had to interact with the European Commission - who largely operate in French - it's been really helpful to be able to understand a conversation and get the gist of a document in French. I've had plenty of meetings where I've spoken English and the other person has spoken French, and we've got along just fine as we both have passive knowledge of the other language.

I also took O level German and then studied Spanish at night school - as a result of which I can generally at the very least get the rough drift of texts in Portugese and Italian as well.

Mind you, I guess that may all be a bit redundant in the future . . .

I would say ITIS actually the same language bobochic as I did o level French and manage to have a perfectly understandable if basic conversation with most people I meet in France