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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Original poster

New grammars by 2020 which will exclude 90% of local kids

518 replies

noblegiraffe · 09/02/2017 15:47

What an excellent use of scarce public funding, to build schools that most kids can't access Hmm instead of using it to build good comprehensives to improve the life-chances of everyone.

Word from the government (who appear to be ploughing ahead with the proposals before they've even published the consultation results) is that new grammars will only take the top 10% rather than the top 25% of kids. God knows where they've got the evidence that the top 10% of kids require a different school but they're certainly not sharing it with us.

It is also beyond me how making grammar schools even more elite will help with the promised social mobility agenda, when previous discussions were about how the pass grade would be needed to be lowered to increase the number of disadvantaged kids gaining access.

And if you were in favour of a grammar school opening in your area because you thought your kid would get in, how sure are you now? How much less tempting is a grammar school opening up if your kid is more likely to be sent to the other school?

In addition, expect to see furious threads in the near future from parents whose local school of choice has converted to a grammar and their kid is now being bussed to another school in the MAT that they wouldn't have chosen for them.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-38906594

OP posts:
diamondsforapril · 09/02/2017 21:57

Whilst I don't disagree with the overall premise of this thread, it should be noted that exactly the same arguments can be used for setting and streaming.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 09/02/2017 22:00

exactly the same arguments can be used for setting

Only if the kids are set/streamed for the whole of secondary school based on a single non-subject specific and inaccurate test taken when they were 10, with no chance to move up or down.

OP posts:
flyingwithwings · 09/02/2017 22:01

HPFA . What is the average wage in Tameside and Oldham.

I can also suggest the parents that use Hulme Grammar , will under no circumstances , whether the education is free put them with children from 'GLODDICK'.

A grammar school in Oldham would probably still be 'shunned' by the very people you suppose would use it. An Oldham or Ashton Grammar school is more than likely to be filled with bright children from Gloddick and Hathershaw or the Ashton estates.

gillybeanz · 09/02/2017 22:02

HPFA

I know families in those areas who sat so many tests for secondary it was mad.
One woman at an organisation my dd attended told me her dd sat 6 tests.
6 bloody tests, poor kid.
We used to travel for this particular thing, the people we met seemed a different species to my dd and her friend who also attended.

fly

Your comment would be funny if it wasn't so sad. They should never have closed the grammar schools round here, and the other less advantaged areas of the country.

flyingwithwings · 09/02/2017 22:02

'Glodwick'.

diamondsforapril · 09/02/2017 22:05

Giraffe

Some secondaries do set in a very draconian manner which is based on their KS2 SATs results.

But at any rate, we know some kids will never move behind the murky depths of set 7.

SockEatingMonster · 09/02/2017 22:10

exactly the same arguments can be used for setting

And only if the kids are also set/streamed for lunch/PE/school clubs/school bus etc.

HPFA · 09/02/2017 22:10

flying Why on earth would parents not send their children to a free grammar rather than one they had to pay for? Whilst parents in London might well pay for high-prestige indies like Westminster rather than a free state grammar they certainly woudn't pay up for Hulme. It will close or become a "naice" alternative for those who don't want the secondary modern.

Oldham is a deprived town but there are plenty of middle-class people there - more than enough to provide pupils to a state grammar. I really don't understand why people think they will step aside so that the grammar places can be given to deprived kids. This doesn't happen anywhere else in the country - why would it happen in Oldham?

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 09/02/2017 22:15

I just googled prep schools in Oldham (not an area I'm familiar with) and found: www.firwoodmanorschool.co.uk/academic-life/

"Excellent results in grammar school entrance examinations are a by-product of the experience we provide for our children."

Good luck competing with that, and the parents who want to save private school fees.

OP posts:
gillybeanz · 09/02/2017 22:17

Tbh I do think that parents who don't recognise the importance of education would grab the chance of a better education for their children.
Just because we all seem happy in our little back streets, working in our remaining factories and call centres, doesn't mean we don't want a better life for our children.
When you haven't had great opportunities in life, when such things as grammar schools aren't on your horizon, you do look towards the bottom as it's all you have.
I'm sure the likes of dd friend would be encouraged by primary school to try for 11+, just as my dh was all those years ago.
They in turn with teachers and other parents/ community encourage.
It then becomes the norm.

As for private tutors for the richest, forget it.
We don't have private tutors, preps, private schools, selective, or parents with the money to afford these things.
It would be fair admittance in places similar to where we live.
No kids would be tutored Grin

ChestnutsRoastingOnAnOpenFire · 09/02/2017 22:18

The single super selective grammar in our (largely white) neighbourhood has 4% white children. Places are mostly taken by Asian children and tutoring is rife. The well off white families opt for private schools, the less well enough go to church for 7 years to attend the church schools and the comps are for everyone else. I don't know a single white child from any of the state primary schools who applied to the grammar. Segregation is rife and there are lots of options available for people to do this in the current system.

flyingwithwings · 09/02/2017 22:19

All the local children from Oldham would be 'frozen' out by all those pushy families from Moston and Harpurhey !

God those tutors must be making a mint !

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 09/02/2017 22:22

Some secondaries do set in a very draconian manner which is based on their KS2 SATs results.

But it is not a necessary feature of setting, unlike packing kids off to a totally different school.

OP posts:
gillybeanz · 09/02/2017 22:25

flying

Please stop it, I'm splitting my sides.

pushy parents from Moston and Harpurhey

Ha Ha Ha Ha OMG, you are bad. Thanks for the laugh

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 09/02/2017 22:27

likes of dd friend would be encouraged by primary school to try for 11+

But she would be competing against kids from that prep school where 'excellent results in grammar school entrance examinations are a by-product of the experience we provide for our children'

Who do you think stands the better chance? The poor kid whose primary school has to nudge the parents to 'give it a go'? We know who usually gets in. The results are already available in grammar schools across the country.

OP posts:
gillybeanz · 09/02/2017 22:34

No she wouldn't though, there are no preps, private, grammars or anything like it here. Parents can't afford tutors, that's why we don't excel in good GCSE results.
If someone makes it to Oxford or Cambridge they are front page news.
It happens occasionally and a couple of years ago there were 4 from within the borough, from the same school year. We all thought we'd read it wrong.

I see your point and totally agree as I've seen this in Manchester areas just over the border from us in Lancs. I know the present system doesn't work, but with more grammar schools there won't be the fight for the same spaces.

TippyT · 09/02/2017 22:37

I came from a Grammar school area ( I am very dyslexic), I was told at my secondary modern to work in a local factory if I could manage it maybe be a hairdresser.

My two siblings went to grammar schools neither went to uni and completed...mean while I am completing my Masters and debating my PhD.

I personally hate the grammar school system, it's overrated and oversubscribed by those who are taught how to pass the 11plus not worthy of it 🙄

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 09/02/2017 22:49

I thought you were talking about Oldham, gilly no idea where you are then.

That aside, if a grammar school opened up in your poor town with no rich people or private schools, do you think it would be good for all pupils in the area, or just the tiny minority who get in? What do you think the effect will be on the other schools? Where do you think the best teachers will want to teach?

OP posts:
flyingwithwings · 09/02/2017 22:52

Oldham has a population of just under 100,000 and about three prep schools go figure ! I think the little place i live in Bucks with a 4000 population has 4 prep schools !

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 09/02/2017 22:58

So Oldham is a comp area and doesn't have many prep schools. Bucks is a selective area and has loads of prep schools? I'm so surprised.

OP posts:
gillybeanz · 09/02/2017 22:58

Some good questions there, I'll try and answer.
Only my opinion though, I'm not experienced in this at all.

I think it would be good for all the children as something to aspire to, to try their best and work for a better future.

We have lots of high schools that are about the same but like anywhere else some better than others.
In comparison to more affluent areas with lots of choice though, they are pretty much the same serving the same type of communities.
So I don't think there would be the issue of them feeling inferior for not passing 11+

My 2 older dc went to these schools, would not have passed 11+ as not bright enough, I don't think if we'd had a grammar it would have affected them at all.

At present the best teachers want to teach in the schools with fewest problems, these schools would still exist with a grammar school in the same town.
The sink estate schools would still exist, the church schools would too. We have a few of these and bar the one exception anyone in the borough and beyond can access them, no church attendance necessary.
They would close if this was the case.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 09/02/2017 23:02

I think it would be good for all the children as something to aspire to

Undoubtedly. But who wants their aspirations abruptly curtailed as they are sorted (rather inaccurately) into sheep and goats aged 10?

My point with the teachers was that a grammar school opening would take the better teachers from the current schools. Teachers who are maths or physics specialists, for example. The current schools will not be able to replace them.

OP posts:
multivac · 09/02/2017 23:05

It would be fair admittance in places similar to where we live.
No kids would be tutored

It would still pick 10% of children on the basis of dodgy data, though.

My kids were in the top '

gillybeanz · 09/02/2017 23:09

Noble

I understand the best teachers would want to teach there.
However, it's like that here now anyway.
The best teachers teach in the best of a bad lot, the sink estate schools haven't got the best teachers now.

BertrandRussell · 09/02/2017 23:23

"And only if the kids are also set/streamed for lunch/PE/school clubs/school bus etc."

Why?