DS Expelled - drugs

[TapasGirl]

I have posted this in Parenting but see from previous posters on here that others have had similar experiences and would like to draw on those experiences if anyone is able to help.
DS is going to be expelled tomorrow year 11 for selling drugs to another student.
DS' explanation is that he and friends (who have smoked weed on various occasions, as it has all come out now) put herbs into a bag to sell on as weed to make some cash.
The pupil he sold to realising it was herbs reported him to the Head. Subsequently everyone has been investigated and it looks as if the evidence against DS is strong. Also when he was investigaged by the Head he confessed to selling Weed to the other pupil

So he/we are in the shit basically and I don't know where to go from here.

I did email the Head of Friday when it all came out to say that we wanted to withdraw DS as I did not want his expulsion on his record.
Since having some good advice from the Parenting forum I have withdrawn that statement, to say we need to be more informed before taking him out.

I do not want him to go to a PRU. I know lots of people say how good they are; how they have turned others lives around etc. but he only has 20 weeks left to do GCSE's and I know this will not work for him. He struggles badly has had Ed Psych reports which School have had. I believe he is probably on the Aspergers spectrum. He struggles socially; eager to please; doesn't get consequences etc.

So tomorrow I want to ask the School to keep him on roll and I will give up my job to support him through his GCSE's at home. But I will need their support to do this as I am not exactly academically gifted myself but sure between us we can scrape through a couple of C's - if we are lucky.

Do you think this might work with the School. Or do you think they will just want him off their roll.

I am absolutley terrified of what is to become of him and am in a very bad place. Your advice (particularly if you have been where I am today) would be really appreciated.
X

Ok. Whatever you do do not withdraw him. I was on your previous thread and I was the one who questioned social communication - I see yiu question AS. I recognised a lot of what you said re impressionable as my Ds has ASD.

What does his ep report state he needs that he hasn't been provided? What paperwork is there to show a behavioural plan or something?

Now, what your Ds did was serious and certainly is a expellable offence. However you may have a case to appeal it. I've been through situations where Ds has repeated - quite frankly horrific racist language - and has fixed term exclusions. School tried to say no student ever had used that language before in school but I could appeal permanent exclusion because Ds gave a verbal statement about where he'd heard it (including an re lesson on racism ) and I was able to prove that Ds would repeat it less subletly than other students!

A pru may work for him. There are plenty about where the pupil gets 1:1 and there are sections for behaviour and also vulnerable students. Don't assume or imagine he will be in a unit with students who can lead him astray!

Anyway back to appealing. Do a SAR for ds file. It will cost you £10. Then if they haven't supported him and shown they've support him, including increasing/changing support if it's not changed behaviour you can argue they haven't followed the SENDCOP. You may not win and that may be time consuming but you can certainly use it to get the la to get him in a supported place.

Right now you'd be better off getting him some specialist that can support him to pass the 5 GCSE he needs for college and help with social skills to secure him a better future away from crime. I'd also ask about a referral to Camhs to be assessed for ASD.

I do agree but the waiting list for Cahms is long.... months.... and time is of the essence. Keep an eye on procedure though, they have to provide work and paperwork for your ds.
There will also be a senco now, there has to be it's the law. Just be a stickler for paperwork and keeping a note of everything. Be in mind he can go to College now too, it might be worth approaching them. We send them from 14 if necessary.
Don't beat yourself up about this it's wasted emotion and what he did was wrong.

His Tapas
Bojorojo is correct. Schools do have to pay for SEN children's support unless they have an EHCP (previously called a statement).
I was thinking with your DSs difficulties he would be eligible for one.
We got a diagnosis immediately from the paediatrician but then of course he had to write a letter/report. In our case it went to the GP and was received very quickly. We asked for, and were given, a copy of it.
When we got our DD assessed privately for dyslexia we were given a very comprehensive report at the end of the assessment. It was done at a university with a department specialising in and researching dyslexia.
I agree that there won't possibly be time to get an EHCP before the January meeting but the reports from psychologists should be taken into account. However I have no idea whether they alone will be sufficient to obtain an EHCP.
In my experience it is common for education psychologists to say things like possibilities of and traits of rather than giving a firm diagnosis.
I really have no experience of autism being diagnosed by other health care professionals so am not sure if they would be more definite in their diagnosis.
Is there an online Autism society with a helpline who you can speak to or email ?
I believe there is also an online ADHD society.
DGS had a clinical diagnosis of FAS and ADHD (caused by FAS) when he was 3.
On starting school he had an EHCP and is now, at 11, doing very well in a mainstream school with support. His EHCP is reviewed annually and there has never been any suggestion of it being removed.
We took the decision to medicate him for ADHD when he was 6.
Mainly because he was becoming upset that he couldn't control his behaviour in school although he was never reprimanded or punished for it. His teaching assistant used to take him outside to ride a bike and release some energy. However he was getting to an age where he didn't like being seen as different and he actually wanted to be able to work and concentrate as the other children were doing.
Ritalin, the medication, does not sedate him. I don't think anything could !
It is actually a stimulant, like speed, which activates the faulty neurotransmitters in the brain. The only side effect was him not being able to go to sleep at night. An adjustment of the dose sorted that out.
I was told by a friend that ADHD does not always cause hyperactive behaviour. Her DS has ADHD and often goes into a dream like state.
In common with DGS he finds it difficult to follow instructions and is often unaware of the consequences of his actions.
The only other suggestion I have is to possibly speak to the SEN coordinator at the LEA. We recently moved to a different LEA and ours was very helpful in getting DGS into a school which had previously told me had no places.
You really have a lot to deal with and I hope so much things work out for you and DS.

Just read talk of a special school in another post.
There are some state schools for autistic children but I believe very few.
I know of one in North Wales and one in Cambridge.
My nephew went to the one in North Wales.
It was a unit attached to a mainstream high school and the aim was to gradually integrate the children into the mainstream while still having a safe place to return to.
He has Aspergers and did very well there and went on to uni.
I also heard of another parent living in mid Wales who drove her child for 3 hours each way every day so he could attend the school.
In the very slight chance you are in North Wales, it is in Denbigh.

Under no circumstances should you consider just withdrawing your son from the school. If you do, the school walks away with no record of the permanent exclusion having happened and most importantly the LA will also not have any pressure to find an alternative education for your son. You will be on your own trying to find education for him, which will be difficult.
The school are trying to get out of their responsibilities and you need to make them justify the decision to permanently exclude both to the governing board appeal panel and to an independent review panel. At the independent review panel, you are entitled, if you ask for them, to have an SEN specialist present to comment on what SEND provision is like in the school and whether your son may have expected more from the school. An SEN specialist saying the right things could go a fair way to getting this exclusion sent back for review. It is a risk but in your circumstances a risk worth taking.

Also the LA would appear to have made a decision in the other case of PE that you refer to, to home educate until the exams are over. That has got to be a better bet than trying to find another school.

I can't see how any school can say that they don't have provision for learning difficulties. Was the Ed Psych report from a previous school then? I don't think the school has done any favours for your son, if they haven't taken account of his needs, including the ASD.

I agree that giving up your job would be a mistake. Apart from anything else, when this is over, you don't want to have burned your boats job wise and you need something for you too. I reckon the PRU and a college place would be your best option, but be prepared for the exams to be compromised.

The Ed Psych report was at age 7. I think you said - so not remotely useful for an EHIC now. Very doubtful it would be of use at appeal. However, up to date info on his SEN would be and the info on the plans the school had for helping with SEN which have not been actioned. I think you would need to find reliable evidence to prove this though because no school will say it does not provide for SEN! I think schools will get concerned about behaviour and will be linking this to SEN, hence the talk at your meetings. It seems to be a recurring pattern as you said it happened in the private school. Do get a SEN specialist to attend if you can but whether they will have in depth knowledge of this school (is it fairly new?) is open to question. Does it have an Ofsted report which covers Sen provision there?

Regarding home ed. We used to organise this for school refusers and some excluded children in my LA. Not sure if there is a budget now but some subjects have to be dropped, usually. Sciences can be difficult. Usually about 4/5 subjects can be managed but it very much will depend on what tutors are available.

The other gamble is the exam boards being used in another school and the syllabus. Presumably the Events Management syllabus will go out of the window.

I am not sure I would trust anything a HT said about what my child would or would not survive. Imo not all HTs know as much as they think they know and they may well have a conscious or subconscious agenda. In this case, it is easy to see that your withdrawing your ds would save the school a lot of money and an awful lot of trouble: all the costs, in money and time, of getting his exams sorted and turning him round would be borne by you.

Thanks again for your advice.
Last Ed Psych reports was when DS as 13.6. School has both.

I have not received anything from the School - no letter or email etc. Head phoned DH on Monday to say that DS was to be permanently excluded.
I haven't asked for anything in the hope that if they haven't followed process it might allow us more time to consider our position in January??

I had to go in on Monday eve to collect DS's mobile phone and the HT did say that they will try the managed move to the other School.
I didn't want to start kicking off about process and SEN support at that moment as want the HT to do as much for us as he can to transfer DS to the other School and worried if I start to rock the boat he won't do anything to help us.
The HT has said that he will let me make my mind up about withdrawing DS until the Governors meet on the 9th Jan and then they will make the decision about the perm exclusion.
I have also managed to get DS (and me) an appointment to be fully assessed for ASD but this cannot be done until 9th Jan (day of the Governor's meeting). This is a private appointment so not sure how long we would have to wait on the NHS.
I have also contacted a number of tutors for some extra support at home so hoping that I hear something soon.

Just a few thoughts that may or may not be helpful, I am just a school governor so not a professional but I have sat on far too many exclusion panels.

Does the school have published drugs policy? (it might be on their website). The [[https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/270169/drug_advice_for_schools.pdf DfE and ACPO drug
advice for schools]] says on page 7: "Exclusion should not be the automatic response to a drug incident and permanent exclusion should only be used in serious cases. More detail on excluding pupils can be found in the DfE Exclusion Guidance."

Even if the school have a drugs policy that states permanent exclusion for selling then paragraph 10 of Exclusion from maintained schools, Academies and pupil referral units in England states "Provisions within the Equality Act allow schools to take positive action to deal with particular disadvantages affecting one group, where this can be shown to be a proportionate way of dealing with such issues"

You talk of having Ed Psych reports in the past, have these been shared with the school? If you have and given your meetings with the SENCO then it is reasonable to believe the school are ware that he meets the Equality Act definition of disability ("You’re disabled under the Equality Act 2010 if you have a physical or mental impairment that has a ‘substantial’ and ‘long-term’ negative effect on your ability to do normal daily activities."). Even if they didn't acknowledge this prior to the incident paragraph 17 of the above exclusion guidance allows them to take account of it after the incident.

In the meeting with the governing body you would be within your rights to highlight to them they they are expressly allowed not to exclude your ds for something they would exclude a child without a report saying "may be on the Aspergers or ADHD spectrum and also talks about him not understanding the consequences of his actions"

The governing body need to decide if allowing your ds to remain in school would seriously harm the education or welfare of the pupil or others in the school (paragraph 15) and if in with respect to the school's legal duties (including the Equality Act and the SEND Code of Practice) if the decision to permanently exclude your DS is "rational; reasonable; fair and proportionate" (paragraph 5) and "lawful, reasonable and procedurally fair" (paragraph 67).

If the governors on the panel know their stuff they will know that they must consider your representations (not just rubber stamp!!) (paragraph 61) and that with this background you would be able to lodge a claim of discrimination to the First-tier tribunal (which has the power to reinstate your ds if they uphold) as well as the normal appeal process.

All of this is my interpretation of the documents I have referred to, it isn't in any way professional advice but it might give you something to think about. If you want more advice you could try to contact the Coram Children's Legal Centre www.childrenslegalcentre.com/ and/or The National Autistic Society School Exclusion Service www.autism.org.uk/services/helplines/school-exclusions.aspx

Wow OB thank you - that is so informative. Think I need to start to compile a report of what you have all advised.
One thing is that I'm not sure I even want DS to stay at the School. We have been having some frank discussions where everything has come out. It seems that drugs in the School are rife. He has even shown me a photo of another student smoking a joint in the classroom.
DS has talked about friends having Dealer's numbers on their phones. I do believe him because he has nothing more to lose and some of the things he has told me about himself outside of School has not shown him in the best light.
The saddest thing is that I said to DS yesterday 'why did you do it, you didn't even need the money' - he said 'I know I just wanted to look cool'.

I was a teaching assistant in a high school. We would support the sen children in their exam and I know that there would be students who were not at school who would come in and take exams. But I also know that there we're students who took exams who didn't do very well just because of the way the exams we're taken. The same students went on to do their college courses and would take their basic exams English, Maths and IT again and would pass with flying colours. Saying that I'm wondering if there was a college that would take him in early or a taster course he could go on. It might be that the more relaxed lessons might suit him better.

You do need to make sure that you record every telephone call etc about this and if at all possible get what is said in writing or confirm in writing your understanding of the situation to whoever you had the conversation with. Believe me that written evidence is so important in these cases when so much is he said / she said.
What oddboots has said is essentially correct, though from reading between the lines on all your posts about the school and the head teacher, I would have real reservations that the governing body would do what oddboots is saying, they will in my opinion just nod and follow the lead of the head teacher in confirming the permanent exclusion.
The fact that the school have failed to PE your son in writing, a week after the event is a serious failing and confirms to me that the head teacher has failed to look at the regs around exclusions. If he does not confirm before 9th Jan when the governors meeting is scheduled for, then there has been no permanent exclusion and the governors meeting should not take place.
By now he should have informed the LA and the first thing they will do is ask where the PE letter is, so I suspect he has not done that either. He is just leaving you and your son dangling, hoping that you will withdraw your son, which is the worst thing you could do.

God this is something I worry about regularly with my ds, he is so impressionable and likely to do what he is told and not understand the consequences and it frequently scares me. (Also has some SN and on the long cafcass list)

I don't have advice but just wanted to say that I know children who have been in similar situations who have got their place at college and thrived in a different environment. Good luck op.

However much you don't want your son to return to the school do not withdraw him.
I have known students get: LA funded home ed courses, and free entry to GCSE exams- finding an exam centre can be a real problem otherwise (and even trickier for: science, languages, DT and Art subjects).

Hope 2017 is good to you and your son. ☘️

Thank you so much KL for your lovely message. I hope 2017 is good for you too. x

IT is very interesting to see the tone of comments on here about a child attempting to sell "weed" and the other post about a child smoking it where the comments are significantly more judgemental.

Bojo, i think the difference in the tone of the responses may very well be due to the OP on the other thread totally minimising what her son had done

I think as Mums with children who have not travelled the route we wish them to, it is really difficult and only those who have shared the same experiences will understand the depths of despair that having your child excluded due to them either smoking weed on site or selling the evil stuff, that goes with it.
As mums with children who have travelled either route, we don't come onto MN to be berated for the bad choices our children have made. What we are looking for is informed advice, positive experiences/outcomes and a hand to hold during a very dark time.
It is very easy to judge until you have the experience. I know I will try my very best not to judge anyone again.
I would like to thank everyone who has been kind enough to take time out of their day to offer the much needed support and truly invaluable advice.

I agree Rosie, but often schools will take selling as the more serious "crime". However, the stories of the children have similarities, regardless of the parental reaction being different. There are lots of references, in the other thread, to schools following a hardline approach, zero tolerance of drugs on school premises being a good thing, that no-one wants their children being educated with children who are involved with dope and that the other child deserves to be permanently excluded. Most of the comments reflect upon the stupidity of the child, but of course the comments may be punishing the Mum for having the wrong attitude.

It is hard when children are not as we want them to be. As someone who used to work for an LA and spent a lot of time trying to find new schools for excluded children, I am very much aware of the upset caused whether the parent came across as contrite, or not. Both of these children have lessons to learn - very quickly.

The OPs in these two situations 'seem' very different and maybe because of this one child will learn their lesson more quickly than the other - regardless of what school do, I can imagine this OP will/has responded to the behaviour appropriately. The other OP will contact bye to think their kid is 'bunny' and blame everyone else.
Kids do stupid, stupid things and we all pray that ours won't!

Contact bye??? Continue to!!!!

As mums with children who have travelled either route, we don't come onto MN to be berated for the bad choices our children have made. What we are looking for is informed advice, positive experiences/outcomes and a hand to hold during a very dark time.

I don't think anyone was berating the other mother, but plenty of people advised her that by minimising what her DS had done she wasn't helping him, and said that her best chance in her meeting with the school was to show how seriously she took what he'd done, and demonstrated how she was going to work with them to try to stop it happening again. She repeatedly said she wasn't that bothered by the drugs and she'd consulted lawyers about technical loopholes - it was pointed out that this would be unlikely to get the school onside.

My two are adults now, but there were some serious wobbles in their teenage years, so I do understand what it's like when kids do really stupid stuff that could compromise their futures. I don't have anything to add over and above the other good advice that's been given on this thread, but I wish all the best to you and your son, and to the mother and son on the other thread. I hope that there are good outcomes all round, lessons are learned, and that both young people will be back on track soon.

There is no proof that it was herbs so we unable to do anything there. Also when under pressure DS said it was weed - so who knows. The pupil who he sold them to is also in trouble but she has told DS that she will tell the Head that it was Herbs. This won't hold any weight though.

So what has happened with the 'herbs'? Do the school have them? Have they destroyed them?

I don't think you should just roll over, how did the school allow a child to believe they could get away with dealing? This school has a big problem and it is not your son.

Yes he has done wrong, yes he has been stupid but then so have the school.

If they believed it was drugs why didn't they call the police? If they knew it wasn't then why do they want him to leave?

Who was there to advise your son when he was being questioned about this? What investigation have they had?