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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Original poster

Bring back secondary moderns?

82 replies

user1471516728 · 13/09/2016 12:46

OK alternative tack on the grammar school debate. Assuming 80% of children would attend secondary moderns (not comprehensives) after a full roll-out of grammar schools, why would that be a great idea for those in the 80%?

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 17/09/2016 08:23

You said there was room for a co-ed grammar- which, if these plans go ahead, could well be the excellent non selective school you mentioned- and you said that you thought moving to being grammar may not be a rosy prospect for comprehensive schools.

I made assumptions based on these statements. My apologies if I was wrong.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 17/09/2016 08:37

If the SMs are getting nearly all the PPs then how on earth can the argument be made that grammar schools aid social mobility?

KathyBeale · 17/09/2016 08:51

I live in the same area as PWP and I'm currently flummoxed by our massive choice - which when you look closer is really no choice at all. Either you tutor from y4 (my son has just started y5 and I'm told most of the tutors are now fully booked) at the expense of all extra-curricular activities, or it's the local comps. Which are all great. Darrick is walking/cycling/two stops on the bus distance from us but their catchment is now just 0.9 miles (we are about 1.2 miles away) because 50% of their intake is siblings. There is a CofE school locally. We are completely atheist and even if we weren't, we are culturally Jewish and Catholic. There is a lovely boys comp where my neighbour goes by there is no public transport. In London, seriously.

The Priory that someone linked to has just become a Harris Academy. I loathe Harris Academies. They have completely taken over the other side of the borough.

Anyway, while I think there is demand for another secondary school, especially for boys, there is no physical space - you need a lot of room for a secondary school - and throwing a grammar into this mix would make things much, much worse, not better.

MumTryingHerBest · 17/09/2016 09:06

KathyBeale Sat 17-Sep-16 08:51:51 I live in the same area as PWP and I'm currently flummoxed by our massive choice

To be fair, if PettsWoodParadise's DC(s) attend a grammar, they were likely one of the lucky ones that did have choice. Perhaps this is why they think there is a lot of choice in their area.

From what I understand, and I could be quite wrong here, a lot of people don't have choice because school planning guidelines don't allow for a sufficient surplus of schools places to facilitate real choice.

noblegiraffe · 17/09/2016 09:50

The CEO of the Harris academy chain has said that they will consider converting some of their schools to grammars, because tactically, they wouldn't want their schools to become the secondary modern.
schoolsweek.co.uk/dan-moynihan-chief-executive-of-the-harris-federation/

So that school could well become a grammar.

noblegiraffe · 17/09/2016 09:54

That would reduce choice further wouldn't it? You want your kid to go to the grammar because the other schools are crap, but it's a Harris Academy. What do you do?!

A friend of mine is in a similar situation, send her DD to a secondary modern, or send her to a girls grammar. The DD would hate single sex schooling. They don't know what to do.

bojorojo · 17/09/2016 19:56

If the grammar is the best fit academically, the grammar! Most children do not get really upset at not being educated without boys and they need to persuade DD of the advantages of the girls school. Where I live no-one would refuse a grammar on that basis and there are plenty of ways to stay in contact with boys if it is a major issue.

noblegiraffe · 17/09/2016 21:03

Oh if only it were that simple, bojo. Unfortunately children are real people with their own personalities who are not always easily pigeonholed.

yeOldeTrout · 17/09/2016 21:53

This whole idea of "best fit"... what it really means is narrowing options based on a presupposition about what an IQ test means about what kids should study. This is a narrowing of options in what they study & how they study. For kids who attend both grammars & non-selective schools.

shouldwestayorshouldwego · 17/09/2016 22:49

In Kent the decision to review lies entirely with the HT. They might decide to take all of their 'not quite passed' to appeal or none of them. They can take Jonny who got 319 (pass mark 320) to review but not Sarah who got 350 and missed out by one mark on one paper. It is entirely up to the Head Teacher.

I think that grammar schools can be good for some dc but only because the rest of their peer group has been creamed off. It also is a substantial disadvantage to a child with dyslexia or dyscalcula who may not pass a test requiring pass marks in a number of areas, nevertheless that child might excel say at English and Science but the top set has disappeared off to the Grammar school so they aren't challenged in the same way. I think all schools setting by subject would address this - the 'grammar school' children would probably be largely in the top sets, but those who find a few subjects hard can be in a lower group. Likewise the dyslexic child might get extra support in English but be in the top maths set.

BertrandRussell · 18/09/2016 08:49

As a point of information, in Kent the decision to review is the head teacher's, but if the Head's review is unsuccessful, there is still a Parental appeal process.

shouldwestayorshouldwego · 18/09/2016 09:58

I was expanding on my post of 15/09/2016 17:57 and the comments by bojorojo about the Head Teacher review in Bucks. By the time parent appeals are heard then the school places are all allocated and the child is aware of the allocated school etc. Some HT don't take to appeal cases in Kent which it sounds as if Bucks automatically review. Without the review process though there can be no adaptation for circumstances so that isn't great either.

minifingerz · 18/09/2016 21:25

"Some have in excess of 30% high abilty children so why would they not offer A levels and academic GCSE's? It would be failing the children if they did not."

So why do you need grammar schools?

Obviously non-selective state schools are able to meet the needs of the high achieving dc's who are currently attending separate schools.

minifingerz · 18/09/2016 21:34

Maybe all successful comps should protect their status by becoming academically selective grammars.

Perhaps we could arrive at a situation where there are simply no local schools which would be accessible to low achieving children, who could all then be gathered up in buses from different boroughs and educated in portacabins in a giant quarry, that grammar supporters could confidently refer to as a 'sink school'.

The more I think about the ideological direction this government is going the more desperately sad I feel. More selection, more elitism, more separation of rich and poor, separation by religion and class. Sad

Ollycat · 18/09/2016 21:48

Borojoro

My children are at SWBGS - it's catchment is confused it does include part of Maidenhead but that is historic but it does not in general pull children from out of catchment- the current year 7 didn't even offer to all of catchment. Same with GMS only catchment offered. The residency rules have tightened also. GMS is fantastic- I would have sent my children there had they not qualified but many of the other uppers are not great! Look at those in and out of special measures!

Personally as I've said before I'd rather we didn't have selective education- and I have both in a very sought after school (doing v well and v happy).

mathsmum314 · 18/09/2016 22:00

Genuine question, looking for personal experience not professional.

Why do you think your school/child would benefit from having a class of gifted academics that are forced to do the same subjects as your DC?

I ask because I honestly dont know the answer.

noblegiraffe · 18/09/2016 22:01

maths why do you think all students at a comp do the same subjects? Confused

BertrandRussell · 18/09/2016 22:17

"Genuine question, looking for personal experience not professional.

Why do you think your school/child would benefit from having a class of gifted academics that are forced to do the same subjects as your DC?

I ask because I honestly dont know the answer."

Two questions. What is a "gifted academic"? And what subjects are you talking about?

mathsmum314 · 18/09/2016 23:17

I ask because that's my experience. Its informed by responses from his teachers/school, to my questions.

And maybe I am (stupid) but I knew my DC was gifted from about 3, when we were chastised by school for having taught him to much... it snowballed from there. I have tried to move to good schools but never managed to have enough money to get to somewhere good enough.

The comprehensive system is broken.

noblegiraffe · 18/09/2016 23:24

The comprehensive system is not broken just because it can't cope adequately with the top 0.01% (or whatever). There's no guarantee that a grammar could either.

bojorojo · 18/09/2016 23:46

SWBGS does indeed take children from Maidenhead but surely TM wants a grammar school there so all "deserving children" in Maidenhead can get into one. Lots of the Bucks grammars take out of county children as they cannot fill their y7's if they don't - loads come into Bucks from Milton Keynes. Lots of people in Bucks would like to pay into an education system for Bucks children but the expansion of the grammars has meant that many of them recruit from neighbouring areas, and some have expanded their catchments over time. This must have a detrimental effect on the comprehensive schools in neighbouring areas.

Minifingerz. I think that you are missing the point in that the children who used to get 5c at Sats, and were classed as high achievers by the Govt, are not quite as high achievers as those who get selected for the grammar schools (by and large) and the 11 plus is not the same as Sats anyway. In some well to do areas, there are lots of level 5 children and as I have said, they can get a very good education in a secondary school, and, yeOldtrout, it has been said in this thread, the children study the same subjects. It is true that media studies and a few other less academic subjects are not found in the grammar schools, but the core subjects are the same. It is also true, as I said earlier, that some secondary moderns are not good and therefore a first, second and even third division of those schools is apparent.

noblegiraffe · 18/09/2016 23:52

They clearly don't all study the same subjects, Y9 take their options. Some kids take the Ebacc suite, a lot of kids don't. Some take further maths, triple science, others take BTECs. Right down at the bottom end some take level 1 certificates, ASDAN and so on.

BlueGazebo · 19/09/2016 06:46

maths

An 11plus exam requiring "all-round" ability could easily result in a truly gifted child failing eg the student with only average vocabulary but a gift for maths. Or perhaps the uniquely gifted writer or scientist who has dyslexia.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 19/09/2016 07:05

absolutely, gifted children often have lopsided abilities.

BertrandRussell · 19/09/2016 08:25

The thing is that even if we found a completely perfect, untutorable, 100% accurate way of dividing 10 year olds into 25% clever, 75% non clever, it would still be an outrageous, psychologically and socially divisive thing to do.