Daughter going to local grammar school, can anyone tell me about the curriculum?

[LadyMaryofDownt0n]

As title, first child going to grammar school/seminary ed & I haven't a clue what lies ahead. I know the subjects but not what's being taught exactly. I'd like to know so I can help did plan ahead.

She likes learning & i am keen for her to keep the momentum over summer.

I reckon dictators are quite busy folk.

Is that not just anecdote again?

Hundreds and hundreds of students over twenty odd years is anecdotal and not evidence? To quote from above If you do not do work with your child over the holiday they could be unable to put the work in when it comes to A level, not get into the university they want. This hypothesis is directly falsified by teaching hundreds of successful students who were not asked to work through their school holidays when they were 11 or 13.

Of course I can't publish verifiable evidence on Mumsnet (without obtaining permission from the cohorts of students involved) but in that sense everything one reads on Mumsnet is anecdotal.

It's not hard to find academic studies on related issues. For example, see the Unesco report on tutoring:

unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0013/001330/133039e.pdf

It does not include tutoring by parents in its remit, but some of the issues highlighted such as pressure on young pupils and distortion of mainstream teaching are also relevant to parental tutoring. For example, the report highlights the fact that tutoring outside school can mean that teachers face greater disparities within their classrooms than would otherwise be the case. (Specific example: pre-teaching a child the maths curriculum and then asking the school to make special arrangements to teach that child maths separately strains the resources of the school, at the expense of other pupils.)

Reading this thread, it occurs to me that the old hackneyed first-week-back assignment 'what did you do in the holidays' may be quite valuable to teachers in working out which kids are being crammed, which are lucky enough to participate in non-curricular activities, which enjoy benign neglect or suffer from real neglect ....and which have fantastic imaginations!

ErrolFirstly I am being quoted out of context, as that was a reply to imaginary scenarios put forward to show how teaching a child could lead to doom and gloom showing equally silly scenarios could be put forward as a counter argument.
Secondly, I agree teaching would be a lot easier if children were all kept at the same level, but is that reason enough not to teach a child who is capable of learning.
And yes, the evidence you have is anecdotal not statistical. Someone saying they have spoken to hundreds of students who all confirmed their thoughts on a subject is not statistical evidence. Do you teach maths?

Admittedly I was naive in thinking schools could cope with every child regardless of their level. I just did not expect their way of coping would be trying to convince the parents they were not at that level. When you have several discussions along the lines of "yes she is", "no she isn't" and a child upset because their favorite subject is becoming tedious, would you have any better suggestions of what I should have done? Have no one teach her so the argument "the rest will catch up" becomes a self fulfilling prophecy?

Richmal, I was musing on the whole thread, maybe that was meant for esornap?

Never mind - doubtless all our kids will happily survive and thrive on our various styles, as mine (now 17) has done ... having parents who clearly care, whether they get their summer activities optimal or not! Fortunately for me I've just had guidance from the heads of 6th form ' We would like to take this opportunity to wish you and your families a very enjoyable summer and a well earned break.'

And I wish everyone here the same, whatever age your DCs.

I think we must agree to disagree on this. But let me reassure you, dd will be spending lots of days out and about. In spite of doing work with her, I do believe in a good balance of days of creativity, going outdoors or just relaxing.
I think I'm just one of those people who likes to plan, but then I'm also not that bothered if we do not stick to it.
Lastly, I do like maths and science and so does she. Some families are musical, some sporty, some arty. We are just sciencey.

JustRichmal suggesting that a draconian sounding summer 'holiday' regime might kill a DC's interest in learning, make a DC feel under pressure or make the DC worry that she can't achieve without constant work are not scenarios of gloom and doom but a common sense recognition of the risks. My own DC are mostly out the other end of this process as are other posters DC, so we have experience which perhaps you don't. If it helps, I've seen several children put under this sort of pressure fail/ go wild. A close friend at school, an only child, had a Cambridge don mum for whom no mark was ever good enough, nor could she ever do enough work. She went wild on drink and drugs at Oxford, failed Prelims, refused to re-sit and left, taking years to rebuild her life. Needmoresleep has also clearly seen at first hand the fall out of this kind of approach. I would just add that none of my DC have failed to get into the university of their choice, none are jobless, none are homeless and while some can be a bit bossy at times, nor are any dictators. Good luck to you and your DD though, perhaps it will work out fine.

I could also quote anecdotal evidence of children who were not asked to work over the holidays who went wild on drink or drugs, Thinking about it I more of these so through the power of anecdotal evidence you have convinced me I am on the right track.

goodbyestranger I have not used derogitory terms to describe your parenting decisions and I think you are going to stick to your views as strongly as I will stick to mine, and so the best we can do is agree to differ

Lastly, I do like maths and science and so does she
Great so just let her dip in to what she finds interesting as and when she wants. She is old enough and may then be able to impart new knowledge and views to you rather than both of you being resttricted by your interests and education.

She wants to do some A level maths over the holiday and likes having a plan of what she will do. I stress again, she will spend less than half the days of her holiday doing this.
Over half will be spent going places, seeing friends, sitting in front of a games console and generally having a good time.
Doing no maths or science over the holidays is not for her a good time as it is too close to the tedium of primary school.
I teach her because it is usual for those doing A level to be taught.

Someone saying they have spoken to hundreds of students who all confirmed their thoughts on a subject is not statistical evidence.

But being involved with long term projects tracking cohorts through school and university does constitute evidence. Particularly when these projects aim to understand why bright students drop out and under-achieve, why students are less likely to study certain subjects, why this varies between ethnic groups etc etc.

I would also comment that universities are looking in detail at outcomes for their cohorts in the contexts of (i) diversity and (ii) the rapid increase in mental health problems. Reports on the latter align very much with the anecdotal comments of goodbyestranger and needmoresleep above.

Sorry Errol, yes I did put your name instead of esornep.

Esormep. you are saying there is a direct correlation between students who did work in the six weeks holiday and problems with mental health? And that students in fact need to take 6 weeks break once a year to prevent this?

JustRichmal I think it's a fair bet that any parent who institutes a twenty day regime of work during the summer holidays also has a very oppressive approach to their schoolwork in general. My guess would be that the holiday regime would simply be part of a wider malaise.

You are wrong. Unless the words, Have you done your homework is classed as oppressive. "Regime" shows a judgmental attitude over my approach. I promise not to strap her down to a chair for 20 days in a row feeding her only bread and water until she does her work. I promise I will plan with her what days she wants to do work and what she wants to not do work. We will go on holiday during that time and as we walk round and view the sights, I will not follow her with a book of scientific facts for her to learn to recite.
It is nice to know, without having met me you have ascertained I have a wider malaise of bad parenting

She wants to do some A level maths over the holiday and likes having a plan of what she will do
Then let her make her own plan based on a good A level textbook and website

I teach her because it is usual for those doing A level to be taught.
I think that gifted mathematicians at that age will just teach themselves as long as they have the right materials and occasional help with questions and a strong desire to do maths.
A willing reasonably able DC can be accelerated through the syllabus when taught sufficiently but then it becomes more about reaching targets to please or compete.
BTW the tedium of sitting through boring school lessons is completely different to holidays since a DC may choose to do or learn what they want in their free time. Certainly by secondary school age it seems better to be encouraging DCs to independently find and choose what they find interesting and fun to do during the holidays rather than doing all the organising for them.

Sendsummer, that approach of if a student is interested in maths they should be able to teach themselves. How much more true for 16, 17 and 18 year olds. So, the shortage of maths teachers could be solved by giving those students books and computers and telling them to get on with it. Perhaps though they may prefer to have a teacher.

JustRichmal you were specifically talking about 'fun maths' during the holidays. My comments relate to that.

This is a genuine question.

How will it benefit your dd to have A level Maths at the age of 11?

I am not entirely sure how (if the OP is reading) how preparing or not for secondary school is any different whether it is a grammar school or any other kind of secondary school.

I am with PPs in that encouraging interests or enquiry in anything for a motivated DC is a good thing. Ds would have watched history documentaries (for example) at OP's DD's age because he was interested. He was also very very interested in his Xbox and that PC game where you build a civilisation. Had I suggested he did extra maths during the summer holidays he would have fixed me with a basilisk stare, I am sure. But I would not have done.

My own very limited and necessarily anecdotal experience is that as a DC's school / university (if relevant) career progresses then learning to learn for yourself outside of what you are taught becomes more important.

JustRichmal leaving aside the fact of whether or not I'm judgmental about a child doing several hours work a day for at least half the summer holiday, which I demonstrably am (is that a problem?), the programme you describe is very definitely fairly within the Clapham Omnibus Guy's definition of 'regime'.

Today my Y9 has a day off school for inset and has told me that she'll be on the beach all day with a group of friends, all of whose parents seem to be negligent enough like me to waste this opportunity to get ahead with the maths. I'm just wondering how many dictators our small part of the world can accommodate because it seems to me on reflection that I'm surrounded by small dictators in the making. At least they appear to be quite chirpy dictators-in -waiting, which is something I guess.

I'm trying to imagine the response if I suggested that either of my DSs (or primary DD) do hours of work during the holiday.

Soup I think mine would have dealt with the suggestion with just a couple of words (possibly three for the more linguistically able).

'The getting ahead brigade' at grammar schools (with the uber pushy parents) actually skew everything massively for the other pupils. DS is at a super-selective where many, many of the boys are 'pushed' with tutors from Year 7 (and probably back to Year 2). It generally pushes averages artificially high and makes the non-tutored/pushed 'normal' ones feel inadequate.

At some point children have to be left to initiate learning themselves and if your DD is very bright, OP, she probably doesn't need you to get involved at all.

DSis was always streets ahead of me and other sibs but without being pushed by our parents. She was the type of child who would write a musical for fun, read until midnight every night, even read the Bible (and we're not a religious family). We all went to the same school but she did considerably better than us because she was just keen to learn.