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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

The Ebacc is perfect for every kid right?

93 replies

cooperdog123 · 31/03/2016 15:34

Well maybe not. I have three children. My first two children are pretty academic.

Emily goes to a local pretty highly regarded high school, where if they really want to learn they will, one which watches and checks carefully, that all pupils are achieving their projected grades.

Emily, will go ahead work hard and get straight As and A*s, the school’s dream pupil. Charlie, my middle child, highly academic, attending the local boys grammar school, will do the same...

Emily works and works and gets it done but never settles till she has done it all right, always questioning herself and her efforts. Charlie, never questions himself and rattles through his work, needs to make little effort and will still get his straight As and A*s. Sickening!

Both schools heavily push the Ebacc. I felt as a parent that it seemed reasonable and logical to ensure my kids got a broad and balanced set of GCSEs. English, Maths and Science, a humanities and a modern language. For Emily my big fish in a little pond with the motivation to really do well off her own back, the Ebacc worked well. Emily knows she wants to be a vet. That meant she has to do triple science, German and history all of which she loves. She was also able to add a bit of variety and do two subjects that she considered to be fun..... photography and textiles. She is great at those. The subjects in which she excels are the creative subjects... the subjects she needs, to become the vet she wants to be, are the ones she has to make a major effort at in order to achieve the A*s.The Ebacc is working for her as she is doing an amazing variety and is enjoying every day at school.

Charlie, does not know what he wants to be but is highly able at every subject he takes. His options choices were interesting. He has obviously done the obligatory, English, Maths science, humanities and language that the school advised heavily that he should do to get the Ebacc. RE (another humanity)is compulsory. He chose to do geography. In one of his options group was Art and History.... He was advised that other people were better at Art than him so he was not allowed to do it which forced him to do History (in so doing providing the school with a ‘reserve’ Ebacc subject).

This opened a crack of worry for me. He now had no subjects that we could consider to be fun as he was expected in the grammar system to do triple science anyway. We were promised that as he was turned down for his first choice of Art, when at the end of year 9 he was allowed to chose the final option, he would be guaranteed his choice. So when it came to it he had a small choice of Electronics, D&T Resistant Materials, Computer Studies or Business Studies. He chose Electronics and yes he is enjoying it. However there seems no reason to do the subject as it appears to lead nowhere and may not be available at A level.

Any way they will both be fine and get an abundance of of GCSEs at A and A*and go on to university and beyond.

Then there is Henry... clever boy, but simply not as motivated or academic, very capable of comparing himself to his siblings in a negative manner.... He is not destined to attack his education in the same way the other two have. He isn't as focussed, his interest isn't captured and he sees no end point for any of his lessons except science (and now engineering) He isn't seeing an achievement at the end, as he doesn't see where he has started and where each topic in each subject is taking him. So he is turning off. He also worries a lot that he is not achieving the accolades that the other two are naturally achieving and doesn't understand why he is not. Fact…. he isn't putting in the work that they are. ....he is bored.

He goes to the same school as Emily and I naturally assumed options evening would be as simple as it was with her... How wrong was I? For starters the school decided to introduce options in year 8 and a 3 year GCSE programme... Ridiculous in my opinion for a 12 year old to narrow down his education and start deciding on his future. He had no clue. He didn't enjoy anything enough to make these decisions. The teachers didn't feel that the had buckled down hard enough to say that he was going to excel at the different subjects. They were telling me that he must do a language, but they were also telling me that a language would be really challenging for Henry. But he must do a language! Henry seemed to accept this and decided upon Spanish.

Well we probably couldn't have made a worse choice...and I regret having told him that he must do this language as he must get the Ebacc. He is now at the end of his first half year of his three year GCSE programme and feeling that he has made a terrible mistake. His report states his target is a C/D in his Spanish which is obviously not good enough for a bright kid. He is forecast an A for science but will not be allowed to do triple science because he isn't in the top group for maths and English. Also after only one term of Engineering he is forecast a B for his GCSE which he is also really enjoying.

He has turned off from a few lessons as he isn't taking enough practical subjects, which is really what Henry is all about. He knows or wants to know how things work. I am really relieved that he is taking Engineering. He has completed his first project and is totally satisfied with the result. He is so happy with the end product, he really has enjoyed the experience. Anyway as he has turned off from his learning, he is quite capable of being disturbed in class or doing the disturbing, and hence getting himself into minor trouble. So, letter after email after meeting with the school to try to change options, all of which were quite instantly satisfying but ultimately never achieved anything, we are now in a situation where he is hating school and a number of the subjects he is studying. He is possibly not able to change subjects because the school say so and hence he may not ultimatley not achieve the grades that the is capable of.

So what to do?.... Like a bright light in the corner, is the local brand new shiny UTC for young engineers. If he went there he could start his GCSE's again on a two year program. They don't want to push the Ebacc. They offer it of course, but it it not pushed down the parents throats. He is invited to build his own programme to suit his likes and dislikes.

He gets the chance to drop a language if he wants to and take a more intensive engineering qualification .....and is allowed to choose triple science, not an option to him at his current school despite the good projected grades.

The facilities are fantastic which obviously blows us parents away. But they blew him away too. He is able to take his academic subjects but they are put into context and delivered in conjunction with industry partners so he understands why he is learning what he is learning in his core subjects. He can embark upon a range of practical subjects as well as the obligatory ones, so he will get to experience a more rounded practical education which is perfect for HIM. He will get the opportunity to progress in a number of different paths of equal standing: A level leading to university degree, or the apprentice/higher apprentice route where he can work, learn and decide later when he has proved himself and possibly be sponsored through his degree by the company he is working with. No competition with his siblings as he is on a completely different path. Yes he can balls it up, as he is a kid but he may just do very well! He is capable of it but not by taking the subjects he is currently working on.

I am lucky to have found this alternative opportunity. How many parents are in my shoes, despondent that they can see their child is struggling in the current so called perfect path, decided upon by the ministers for education and the DfE? How many kids have turned off from education because they have been heavily persuaded by their school and by their parents to undertake the Ebacc subjects that are not right for THEM. Not everyone should be gaining this so called broad and balanced education because some kids simply are not interested in some of these subjects.

I can look at it from both sides. I see it as the perfect option for my first child. It is an option that my middle child has taken and will capably pursue and achieve at a high level because that is what is expected from him at his highly academic grammar school. But sadly for my youngest, it is not the right thing at all. As a parent I am now wondering if the logical pressure that the school and ultimately I, have put on him to take that language to add to that science and that humanity will take its toll and ensure that he achieves less than he should because he is really not enjoying his time at school any more.

The Ebacc is perfect for every kid right?
The Ebacc is perfect for every kid right?
OP posts:
DessertOrDesert · 04/04/2016 13:52

Sorry, Bertrand I didn't read you message before I posted. Similar sentiments. I don't think you can say one section is essential, and the other not.
I think basic maths and English - sufficient for checking your bank balance, loan repayment, how much wall paper you need, reading the letters that come through the door, applying for a job - are the essentials.

BertrandRussell · 04/04/2016 13:59

You see, that's why I think the EBacc is a good idea. It stops kids saying "But I'll never neeeeeeeeed that!" about subjects that a) they might well need, they have no idea yet and/or b) where a passing knowledge is a marker of at least a basic level of education.

And the EBacc being a performance measure also stops schools shunting kids off into "easy" subjects to up their grades. Although this will be less of an issue under Progress 8

SmallCarrot · 04/04/2016 14:15

Bertrand not insisting on the EBACC doesn't necessarily mean that pupils only do easy subjects - neither of my two opted for the EBACC but instead they both chose triple science, engineering, geography/history and music/art plus the compulsory English, Maths and RE. They had to do a science and a humanity, it was only languages that they could drop.

bojorojo · 04/04/2016 14:31

I do not think children should drop areas of the curriculum they think are a bit tough. It is amazing how many people do not value a rounded education, but only a specialised one because other subjects are too difficult. Mostly they seem to be too difficult because of attitude rather than lack of ability. There is so much choice in many schools, swerving the EBacc is easy and results trump breadth. Unfortunately.

In other countries, learning English is crucial, but our children stuggle with the basic learning requied for an MFL GCSE. Lots of parents do not care that their children will not put in the effort and think that specialising is better because it is the easy route for the child.

My DH is a Chartered Engineer. In our day, the EBacc was, essentially, required. Far fewer options were available. He would never, in a million years, have said he did not not want to do French, or History, or Geography because his future career lay elsewhere. Like everyone else, he speicalised at A level. The same applies today. Ho does, however, get very involved with environmental engineering, geology and other topics allied to geography so Engineers would be well advised to stick with it. Likewise they write reports, investigate the history of old buildings and a good general knowledge enhances their ability to work effectively. Engineering is not all about widgets and sitting in a cubicle doing calculations. The broader the basic knowledge someone has, the better they perform at work and they are a more interesting person to employ.

ineedaholidaynow · 04/04/2016 14:37

I've always wondered why there seems to be an issue with learning a MFL in this country. It would appear that in all other European countries children have to learn an additional language, I assume usually English. Do other countries have similar issues and we just don't hear about them? Is it just the academic children who learn additional languages in all countries?

DS(11) is just in the process of getting a French pen friend who will possibly come and stay with us in the near future. So I am busily brushing up my O-level French (showing my age) My old school pretty much made us do the equivalent of the EBacc, before such a thing existed. So compulsory subjects were Maths, English (language and literature), French, Geography, RE and Biology. We could then choose 3 other options from a quite limited choice. Don't really remember any "fun" subjects.

I haven't really used French since my school days and I didn't need it for my chosen profession, but it will be useful when the pen friend comes to stay and in fact I am really enjoying learning it again and helping DS learn it too. He will be learning Spanish at school too (so hopefully my Latin O-level will help me there!). Have to say though haven't really used many of the topics I had to learn for my Biology, Physics and RE O-levels either, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't have studied them. I didn't know what I really wanted to do for a career until I went to University so a broad education was good for me.

Just wish there wasn't such a negative attitude to MFLs in this country

FrizzlyAdams · 04/04/2016 15:38

If you want to put off someone from learning for life, force them to do subjects they hate from 14 onwards.

If children are exposed to a variety of subjects that they enjoy they are more likely to pick up extra learning opportunities in later life.

Not all pupils are academically bent.
If you force those pupils who are more 'hands on' or vocational in their abilities to pursue academic subjects, they are far less likely to be open to learning for learning's sake in the future.

Some pupils love academia and languages - these pupils are able to choose to do history, geography, languages, all 3 sciences etc etc - nobody forces them to do PE, drama, art, music, engineering, graphic design, home ec, etc etc if they don't want to.

By offering choice and opportunity to all children of all abilities and interests you engage them.

HSMMaCM · 04/04/2016 16:33

Ebacc subjects were not optional when I was at school. After long debate about the subjects I was choosing and why, I was allowed to drop science. I have recently taken my core science iGCSE and was amazed at the number of everyday things that I learned to understand, so I can see why science is classed as essential, even if a child is planning to do something completely unrelated (struggling to think of a career where you'd never need science).

DD took French as her 'challenge' subject. She's not a natural linguist and I'm fairly certain she will never use french again in her life (except perhaps to order a croissant), but she worked hard and gained a C grade and was really pleased with herself for attempting something hard and succeeding. There is something to be said for the sense of achievement when you have worked on something hard, but there is also something to be said for not spending years on something which you will never be good at, enjoy, or need.

titchy · 04/04/2016 16:59

Frizzly: If you want to put off someone from learning for life, force them to do subjects they hate from 14 onwards

Except we have one of the highest university participation rates in the world, so the data suggest the reverse is true.....

PolkadotsAndMoonbeams · 04/04/2016 17:18

There wasn't an EBacc when I did mine - I did two English, maths, triple science, ICT (compulsory) then had to do an MFL. I did Spanish, French and Latin, so no humanity.

I wanted to do science though so it wasn't an issue. It wasn't that I disliked humanities, I just preferred languages. I managed five A levels and an Oxbridge offer Grin

In principle though, I do think the EBacc is nice and balanced, and I could have given up an MFL for it (although I have used both my MFLs quite a lot since, and absolutely loved Latin, so I actually think my combination was the best for me). I'm lucky though in that I was a "good all-rounder" - I suspect it's harder to see it as a good thing if you struggle with languages/essays and want to focus where you're strongest.

FrizzlyAdams · 04/04/2016 18:02

titchy, that's great for those that want to go to university.

But what of those who don't?

What point is there in forcing a 14 year old who isn't very academically inclined and wants to be a hairdresser/mechanic/whatever, into doing a load of subjects that they aren't very able at or are simply disinterested in?

English, maths & science are a basic necessity in life - everything else is a bonus.

So long as the opportunity is there for those that want to do the full range of ebacc subjects, why shouldn't the other pupils have the opportunity to do something that 'fits' them better?

Forced learning runs the risk of turning people off learning for life - learning is something to be enjoyed, not endured - whatever form of learning that may be.
Vocational learning is just as valid to one person as academic learning is to another.
University is not the be all & end all.

My son's (local state comprehensive) school has the ebacc option, but it is not forced.
They offer a wide range of subjects, including an 'extra' teaching period after normal school hours for subjects such as drama - they are also partnered with a technical college so some children go there for a full day a week to study their chosen BTEC/NVQ.
I'm sure many do choose the ebacc subjects, but there are also many that don't.

BertrandRussell · 04/04/2016 18:22

"English, maths & science are a basic necessity in life - everything else is a bonus"

Why is science a basic necessity and not history?

titchy · 04/04/2016 18:36

If the 14 year old who wants to be a hairdresser doesn't change their mind for 40+ years then great. However I bet only a handful of adults knew what they wanted at 14. The would-be hairdresser could end up wanting to be a teaching assistant, and maybe become a teacher. Why would you want an education system that closed off options aged 14? And yes I know adults can and do return to college to do GCSEs but my God it's so much harder as an adult.

titchy · 04/04/2016 18:38

And actually my point was that taking subjects as a 14 year old that you're not keen on has no bearing on your willingness to embrace learning post-16 - you said it puts kids off. It doesn't.

FrizzlyAdams · 04/04/2016 19:28

I can only talk from personal experience obviously (mine, extended family and friends).
Forced learning puts people off wanting to learn for learning's sake.

Wrt why is science more important than history-
Science in all its forms is used regularly in everyday life; history is not.

FrizzlyAdams · 04/04/2016 19:35

Sorry, pressed post too soon.

To answer titchy, education is accessible to everyone post 14.

I am changing career at 41, I have been in the same career for 20 years and now I am heading in a completely different direction.
I am going to university in September after 21 years away from education.

Why stop 14 yr olds from accessing a variety of subjects? Why limit them to History/Geography/MFL when they could have done PE/Graphic Design/Engineering instead?

If people want to do the ebacc subjects, great.
If they don't, so what?

titchy · 04/04/2016 19:45

Most kids CAN do PE, graphics etc as well as an MFL and a Humanity. It's not and shouldn't be either/or, except for a very small number of kids unable to access a full curriculum.

Yes I know adults can access education - it's what I do. I also know that a) other than maths and English they have to pay, and b) when you're working, looking after kids, caring for elderly parents, paying a mortgage, going through a divorce etc etc fitting in study is bloody difficult. Far far far easier to do it when you're a teen.

BertrandRussell · 04/04/2016 19:54

"Why limit them to History/Geography/MFL when they could have done PE/Graphic Design/Engineering instead?"

Why not as well?

My ds, for example, is doing the EBacc (double award science) subjects, another Maths, Media Studies, Performing Arts(he could have done Graphic Design) and a a BTec in Sports Science. My dd (at a much more academic school) did Ebacc subjects (triple award Science), Latin, Performing Arts, and Art.

FrizzlyAdams · 04/04/2016 19:57

Presumably the adults learning late in life did something else as a teen?
Worked, studied something different?

If you are doing history & French (for eg) and you are not remotely interested or able, then that is two subject choices less for the stuff you really want to do (one of the myriad other subject choices available).

BertrandRussell · 04/04/2016 20:08

"f you are doing history & French (for eg) and you are not remotely interested or able, then that is two subject choices less for the stuff you really want to do (one of the myriad other subject choices available"

Well "one of they myriad other subject choices available at your school"

You're not really listening, are you?

titchy · 04/04/2016 20:23

So presumably you'd be happy with averagely able 14 year olds just doing Maths, English, Core Science, Music Tech, Graphics, Electronics, ICT and Dance then? Thus ruling out a huge number of options at 16 and meaning they have to return to education and effectively start again as an adult?

Great....

titchy · 04/04/2016 20:27

I Wonder if you're aware that very few countries other than England forces kids to specialise age16 - you want them to specialise at age 13/4!

FrizzlyAdams · 04/04/2016 20:52

I think that you are not really listening tbh Bertrand.
Feel free to read my many posts though for clarification of my points.

Why wouldn't I be happy with those choices titchy?
Why would it be better for them to do geography or Spanish if they had neither the aptitude not the interest?
Why would they 'have to start again as an adult' because they didn't do a language or a humanity?
What a ridiculous extrapolation of what I said.

titchy · 04/04/2016 21:22

Errr cos 12 and 13 year old don't really make great long term decisions, what with them being, you know, 12 and 13 years old Hmm

So picking stuff you like age 12 cos you wanna do hair and beauty, then age 17 thinking, hmmmm actually I don't want a low paid job in a hairdresser working every Saturday, I want something with a bit more of a career. Oh but my NVQ isn't enough, and I don't have enough GCSEs for those A levels. Now what....?

So tell me, now what does that teenager do?

bojorojo · 04/04/2016 21:44

Frizzly . IT is completely unnecessary for budding engineering students to do Engineering at GCSE or Btec. It is ludicrous that anyone thinks our top quality engineers (the ones who are at the top of the tree) and are Chartered went down this route and did not go to university to study an engineering discipline and then study further and do cpd afterwards. They need high quality science and maths A levels. A MFL or Geography would go well with these. We are deluding ourselves if we think the easier "job" type qualifications at 16 will produce world leaders in engineering. They won't! This is why we have such a shortage of highly qualified engineers. Lots of children think an engineer is someone who comes out and mends the dishwasher.

Less well qualified young people may become technicians but the idea that engineering is for children who are not academic is ridiculous. This is why children should be given accurate advice and not just do what is easy.

DorothyL · 04/04/2016 21:47

I have met many 6th formers whose general knowledge is shocking - questions have included "What is a bishop?" and "What is Nato?" - at an age when they are nearly old enough to vote. The early specialization in this country is a huge mistake imo.

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