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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

The Ebacc is perfect for every kid right?

93 replies

cooperdog123 · 31/03/2016 15:34

Well maybe not. I have three children. My first two children are pretty academic.

Emily goes to a local pretty highly regarded high school, where if they really want to learn they will, one which watches and checks carefully, that all pupils are achieving their projected grades.

Emily, will go ahead work hard and get straight As and A*s, the school’s dream pupil. Charlie, my middle child, highly academic, attending the local boys grammar school, will do the same...

Emily works and works and gets it done but never settles till she has done it all right, always questioning herself and her efforts. Charlie, never questions himself and rattles through his work, needs to make little effort and will still get his straight As and A*s. Sickening!

Both schools heavily push the Ebacc. I felt as a parent that it seemed reasonable and logical to ensure my kids got a broad and balanced set of GCSEs. English, Maths and Science, a humanities and a modern language. For Emily my big fish in a little pond with the motivation to really do well off her own back, the Ebacc worked well. Emily knows she wants to be a vet. That meant she has to do triple science, German and history all of which she loves. She was also able to add a bit of variety and do two subjects that she considered to be fun..... photography and textiles. She is great at those. The subjects in which she excels are the creative subjects... the subjects she needs, to become the vet she wants to be, are the ones she has to make a major effort at in order to achieve the A*s.The Ebacc is working for her as she is doing an amazing variety and is enjoying every day at school.

Charlie, does not know what he wants to be but is highly able at every subject he takes. His options choices were interesting. He has obviously done the obligatory, English, Maths science, humanities and language that the school advised heavily that he should do to get the Ebacc. RE (another humanity)is compulsory. He chose to do geography. In one of his options group was Art and History.... He was advised that other people were better at Art than him so he was not allowed to do it which forced him to do History (in so doing providing the school with a ‘reserve’ Ebacc subject).

This opened a crack of worry for me. He now had no subjects that we could consider to be fun as he was expected in the grammar system to do triple science anyway. We were promised that as he was turned down for his first choice of Art, when at the end of year 9 he was allowed to chose the final option, he would be guaranteed his choice. So when it came to it he had a small choice of Electronics, D&T Resistant Materials, Computer Studies or Business Studies. He chose Electronics and yes he is enjoying it. However there seems no reason to do the subject as it appears to lead nowhere and may not be available at A level.

Any way they will both be fine and get an abundance of of GCSEs at A and A*and go on to university and beyond.

Then there is Henry... clever boy, but simply not as motivated or academic, very capable of comparing himself to his siblings in a negative manner.... He is not destined to attack his education in the same way the other two have. He isn't as focussed, his interest isn't captured and he sees no end point for any of his lessons except science (and now engineering) He isn't seeing an achievement at the end, as he doesn't see where he has started and where each topic in each subject is taking him. So he is turning off. He also worries a lot that he is not achieving the accolades that the other two are naturally achieving and doesn't understand why he is not. Fact…. he isn't putting in the work that they are. ....he is bored.

He goes to the same school as Emily and I naturally assumed options evening would be as simple as it was with her... How wrong was I? For starters the school decided to introduce options in year 8 and a 3 year GCSE programme... Ridiculous in my opinion for a 12 year old to narrow down his education and start deciding on his future. He had no clue. He didn't enjoy anything enough to make these decisions. The teachers didn't feel that the had buckled down hard enough to say that he was going to excel at the different subjects. They were telling me that he must do a language, but they were also telling me that a language would be really challenging for Henry. But he must do a language! Henry seemed to accept this and decided upon Spanish.

Well we probably couldn't have made a worse choice...and I regret having told him that he must do this language as he must get the Ebacc. He is now at the end of his first half year of his three year GCSE programme and feeling that he has made a terrible mistake. His report states his target is a C/D in his Spanish which is obviously not good enough for a bright kid. He is forecast an A for science but will not be allowed to do triple science because he isn't in the top group for maths and English. Also after only one term of Engineering he is forecast a B for his GCSE which he is also really enjoying.

He has turned off from a few lessons as he isn't taking enough practical subjects, which is really what Henry is all about. He knows or wants to know how things work. I am really relieved that he is taking Engineering. He has completed his first project and is totally satisfied with the result. He is so happy with the end product, he really has enjoyed the experience. Anyway as he has turned off from his learning, he is quite capable of being disturbed in class or doing the disturbing, and hence getting himself into minor trouble. So, letter after email after meeting with the school to try to change options, all of which were quite instantly satisfying but ultimately never achieved anything, we are now in a situation where he is hating school and a number of the subjects he is studying. He is possibly not able to change subjects because the school say so and hence he may not ultimatley not achieve the grades that the is capable of.

So what to do?.... Like a bright light in the corner, is the local brand new shiny UTC for young engineers. If he went there he could start his GCSE's again on a two year program. They don't want to push the Ebacc. They offer it of course, but it it not pushed down the parents throats. He is invited to build his own programme to suit his likes and dislikes.

He gets the chance to drop a language if he wants to and take a more intensive engineering qualification .....and is allowed to choose triple science, not an option to him at his current school despite the good projected grades.

The facilities are fantastic which obviously blows us parents away. But they blew him away too. He is able to take his academic subjects but they are put into context and delivered in conjunction with industry partners so he understands why he is learning what he is learning in his core subjects. He can embark upon a range of practical subjects as well as the obligatory ones, so he will get to experience a more rounded practical education which is perfect for HIM. He will get the opportunity to progress in a number of different paths of equal standing: A level leading to university degree, or the apprentice/higher apprentice route where he can work, learn and decide later when he has proved himself and possibly be sponsored through his degree by the company he is working with. No competition with his siblings as he is on a completely different path. Yes he can balls it up, as he is a kid but he may just do very well! He is capable of it but not by taking the subjects he is currently working on.

I am lucky to have found this alternative opportunity. How many parents are in my shoes, despondent that they can see their child is struggling in the current so called perfect path, decided upon by the ministers for education and the DfE? How many kids have turned off from education because they have been heavily persuaded by their school and by their parents to undertake the Ebacc subjects that are not right for THEM. Not everyone should be gaining this so called broad and balanced education because some kids simply are not interested in some of these subjects.

I can look at it from both sides. I see it as the perfect option for my first child. It is an option that my middle child has taken and will capably pursue and achieve at a high level because that is what is expected from him at his highly academic grammar school. But sadly for my youngest, it is not the right thing at all. As a parent I am now wondering if the logical pressure that the school and ultimately I, have put on him to take that language to add to that science and that humanity will take its toll and ensure that he achieves less than he should because he is really not enjoying his time at school any more.

The Ebacc is perfect for every kid right?
The Ebacc is perfect for every kid right?
OP posts:
DessertOrDesert · 03/04/2016 09:52

Language. Essays suck, short term memory fried. Languages don't register (Inc English spelling). Eng lit, Eng Lan, maths, tripples science, domestic science (forced to do this, art or DT, let's just say I'm lacking in artistic ability!) & geography as the least essay humanity.
I have nearly as many A levels as GCSE's (5 v8).

FrizzlyAdams · 03/04/2016 10:46

Thankfully our secondary doesn't force the EBacc - my eldest has just done his choices and has a good mix of academic & interesting.

His school is also partnered with the local technical college so there was a good range of vocational subjects for the non academic.

BertrandRussell · 03/04/2016 10:58

"Thankfully our secondary doesn't force the EBacc - my eldest has just done his choices and has a good mix of academic & interesting"

Why are these things mutually exclusive?

roguedad · 03/04/2016 11:42

No objection to doing languages, provided if fits a kids abilities and aspirations. I moved my son from one school to another for a handful of reasons including better MFL provision. He is working on German, Mandarin and Latin from third year. But it is not for everybody, and Dessert... has given one good reason why. There is a wider issue of kids being allowed to follow their dreams and target their abilities. The sooner we rid our schools of Michael Gove's ghastly legacies the better.

FrizzlyAdams · 03/04/2016 12:23

They're not mutually exclusive if you are academically inclined Bertrand, but they are if you are not.
That is pretty obvious, surely, and also apparent in the context of my post I think.

Regardless, as I said I am pleased that our secondary school doesn't push academia to those who are less able in that direction, or to those who are just not interested in it.
I am also pleased that there are vocational options for those that want to head in that direction.

BertrandRussell · 03/04/2016 12:27

So is it the language requirement that's bothering people? Because surely the other 4 are the bare minimum anyone doing GCSEs would do?

meditrina · 03/04/2016 12:51

OP specified the language as a problem for her DS in terms of how and when one specific school requires pupils to make their options, and another poster has mentioned how difficult languages can be for people with dyslexia.

Extrapolating that to damning the whole EBACC system is, I think, over-stating it.

Especially as it's Progress 8 nowadays.

DessertOrDesert · 03/04/2016 13:34

BertrandRussell
I think the principle of broad education to 16 is excellent, and should form a basis of suggested options for averagly academic and above (5Cs in old money).
HOWEVER, it is not a one size fits all. Whilst I struggle with the extended writing, memory, presentation and SPAG components, I'm sure there are an equal and opposite set of people to who the though of requiring to do any further logical/mathematical operations (physics and a significant proportion of chemistry) is equally debilitating to potential results. And I'm sure there are other groups of people to who the set up doesn't work.
So, I agree to the framework, but it should have the flexibility, without detriment to results (child and school) to give the right options (within timetabling constraints) to as many as possible.

BertrandRussell · 03/04/2016 13:51

Obviously "reasonable adjustments" need to be made. But mumsnet would implode if anyone suggested that schools did not insist on English, Maths and a science as core GCSEs. And I am pretty sure that anyone suggesting a humanities subject wasn't necessary would get pretty short shrift too. And I have been on loads of threads bemoaning the lack of MFL. But somehow when these subjects are put together and called the Ebacc they become the work of the Devil....

FrizzlyAdams · 03/04/2016 14:06

MN seems to consist almost entirely of degree educated parents with very academic and gifted & talented children though Bertrand Wink

My nearly 14 yr old has just done his choices:

Core:
English
Maths
Religious Education (called something else, but essentially RE)
Science (he's doing triple, but combined is an option here)
*
Choices:*
History
Graphic design
PE
Media Studies

Extra:
Drama (done as an after school 'extra' GCSE if enough interested pupils).

Their school is partnered with the local technical college so he could have done a BTEC in something as well as the core subjects.

He wanted to do history as he loves it, but it wasn't a requirement to do that or geography (like when I was at school), and MFL isn't compulsory either (like it was for me).

coruscation · 03/04/2016 14:21

I never have understood the point of the ebacc. It seems to have been brought into existence just to be another performance measurement for schools, which resulted in some schools pushing students into the ebacc subjects to boost their figures, while at the same time excluding others who they thought might not achieve the grade. "no, we don't think history is right for Billy, he should try btec apple sorting instead." or some other pointless qualification which used to count as a C at GCSE. The btecs have been tightened up now and there are new performance measures for schools measuring progress rather than just counting the qualifications at the end.

A good set of qualifications from a UTC is just as valuable as a similar set of qualifications with an ebacc wrapper around them.

HSMMaCM · 04/04/2016 09:30

DD's school said the ebacc subjects are useful for children who do not have a clear plan for the future, but it is essentially a measure for the school, not the child. DD took RS as her humanity, which is not counted for ebacc. She did have 2 spare options for 'fun' subjects.

BertrandRussell · 04/04/2016 09:50

I am utterly, utterly baffled by this.

I get that there should be different priorities for children with additional needs. I get that for some very non academic children 5 GCSEs can be a struggle and there should be much better vocational provision for allabilities.

But for most children doing GCSEs in most schools, surely English, Maths, a Science, History or Geography and a language are the core subjects you'd do anyway?

BertrandRussell · 04/04/2016 09:52

"DD's school said the ebacc subjects are useful for children who do not have a clear plan for the future"

So which would you drop if you did have a clear plan for the future at the age of 14?

FrizzlyAdams · 04/04/2016 10:27

At 14 I knew I wanted to be an engineer.

Because History/Geography & a MFL was compulsory I had to do them.
Had they not been compulsory I would have dropped them as I found them boring and I didn't need them.

BertrandRussell · 04/04/2016 11:02

I wouldn't let a child of mine shut down their options at the age of 14...........

SpidersFromMars · 04/04/2016 11:10

What your older DC have done, has no relevance to your youngest. No wonder he feels like he's being compared. You could have skipped the first 2/3.

ridingabike · 04/04/2016 11:40

I think the e-bacc is good. What I don't think is good is the fact that everyone seems to have to do two sciences/double science these days. One science is enough for a rounded curriculum.

I agree with this:

But for most children doing GCSEs in most schools, surely English, Maths, a Science, History or Geography and a language are the core subjects you'd do anyway

In my school it was not compulsory to do a humanity but you did have to do one science, English Lang, lit and Maths. These days most kids will get their humanity by doing the "compulsory" RS so if they don't want to do history or geography they don't need to.

And it always amazes me how people moan about languages. Kids in other countries seem to learn MFL just fine, are British kids really more prone to having learning difficulties that preclude MFL learning? I really don't think so.

FrizzlyAdams · 04/04/2016 11:57

I wouldn't let a child of mine shut down their options at the age of 14...........

Why is dropping History/Geography & a MFL shutting down options though?

For those that are not academically inclined (or interested) or for those who know what career they want to do (could be hairdressing, car mechanic, aeronautical engineer etc) - what is the point in doing those subjects?

Is it not better for these children to have the option/opportunity to do subject matter relevant to their career choice?

ninja · 04/04/2016 12:06

re the UTC's - I have been told (by UTC staff themselves) that in many cases they're getting very good students coming in at A Level - but that for KS4 they are getting a mixture of students - some who schools are encouraging to leave, kids that don't fit in (this may be to do with sexuality, culture, ...). I don't think they've necessarily got the complete set of high flyers that they would have liked. I don't think this is problem though

BertrandRussell · 04/04/2016 12:37

Because it's a very rare 14 year old that knows for certain what they want to do.

Because education is about more than careers.

SmallCarrot · 04/04/2016 12:40

DD's school had a meeting for parents about GCSE choices. At the meeting the head teacher said that it was necessary to do a language to get the EBACC but basically that the EBACC was nothing other than a performance measure for schools and that if your child's only reason for taking a language was to get the EBACC and they didn't need it for their proposed A levels/university course then not to waste a GCSE option on a language.

She's academically quite able and could have done a language but she hates them, none of her preferred universities insist on a language for her proposed degree course so she was glad to be able to drop languages. Many schools aren't as open about the EBACC being a performance measure for schools as far as I can tell.

FrizzlyAdams · 04/04/2016 13:36

Bertrand, you asked specifically about what a 14 yr old with a clear career goal would drop though, which is what I answered (wrt to myself, at 14, knowing that I wanted to be an engineer).

I agree that education is about more than career goals though, which is why I think it is right that they can drop the subjects that don't interest them or that they despise, to make room for subjects that excite their appetite for knowledge.

In my 14 yr old's case he dropped MFL as he really didn't enjoy it and was wasn't interested in it - it was a chore to him.
If he wants or needs to learn a language at a later time he can do it himself.

Similarly History & Geography are subjects that you are interested in or you are not.
You will not be held back in life because you haven't done a GCSE in either.

The only subjects that are essential to everyone are English, Maths & Science.
Everything else is a bonus.

BertrandRussell · 04/04/2016 13:48

What if you aren't interested in or despise science? Why shouldn't you be able to drop that?

DessertOrDesert · 04/04/2016 13:50

I'm writing this with a heavy heart, as a scientist, but if we are saying MFL and humanities can be picked up later, is science essential to future learning?