Yr 6 SATS Support the Teachers?

[lupino]

Im just wondering, now that the teachers are going to ballot on boycotting the SATS, whether and how we can support them? There seem to be rational arguments both for and against SATS but, in my view, the teachers are best placed to judge what is best for our children - when they are not being pressurised by the powers that be to produce quantifiable results. So - lets give the people best placed to judge some real clout by backing them up. The question then becomes how best do we do this?

How is it pass fail, it doesn't affect what school you go to, your future employer doesn't ask about it, you dont even get a certificate for doing it, do you?

From what I have read the secondary school provides extra help for those that are at the lowest end of achievement, that is great. All this hang wringing by parents is what is putting stress on the children. My neighbors child is in Year 6 in a top performing primary, she hasn't done anything different or extra at school or at home, its just another end of term test.

The children will get graded as working
'at expected level' or
'not at expected level'.

That's how it's pass or fail.

Jeremy
try working in a school full of EAL children. 80% of whom have been in the country less than 4 years and arrived here with no English and no formal schooling. Try being their teacher knowing the vast majority of them will not reach are related standards and your school;s data will plummet. Try being a dyslexic child who stands NO CHANCE whatsoever of showing off their full potential in writing because they can't spell.

No SATs aren't the be all and end all but surely if such a chunk of children are going to be deemed "not secondary ready" then there are problems with the assessment. And how as year 6 teachers do we teach these poor EAL kids? Do we teach them modal verbs and passive voices, in the vain hope of passing a test or do we teach them the things they ACTUALLY need to know to start loving learning?

If a school were going to boycott SATs then imo to have any benefit for the children it would need to be decided by around Christmas of y6. Any boycott decided at this time of year wouldn't help anyone much. The children have already spent a lot of time being taught to the test and might just feel the school didn't have confidence in them to do well.

I'm finding the difference between SATs this year for DD2 and in 2010 for DD1 quite marked. The school is doing much more preparation this year (partly due to change of tests, but I suspect more due to change of leadership). Also there is much more homework for DD2 this Easter.

However what I dislike the most is the more brutal nature of the results: raw scores, a '100' ready / not ready division, some indicator of where the child sits in the cohort. This is all well and good for the high achievers, but for a struggling child with low self esteem to be faced with such visible scores when aged only 11 could be too much. I am considering withholding the details from my DD.

rollonthesummer, its just playing with words. I see it as the primary school passing a message to the secondary say, 'this child needs a bit of extra help'. Now I understand a lot of teachers would do this already but its a process of ensuring no child slips through the system.

DraenorQueen, of course working with children that have EAL is going to be different, but that doesn't mean you make the SATs easier for everyone so everyone can pass them, that would make them meaningless. You do your best to help them learn, knowing everyone will achieve different progress and then pass the baton to the secondary.

If teachers boycott the test, then how is that going to help a child who needs extra help at secondary but never gets it because they aren't flagged up by the system. And dont say all teachers will always give extra help to all children who need it because it hasn't been happening in all cases in the recent past.

I meant lilucspunk that the pressure since 3 years ago (Mu son is in year 9) was not as intense as it is now. Yes he had been doing tests at school but he was NOT bringing practice papers home for the Easter holidays. He came out with a level 6 then

My other son has came home with a pack of papers. Endless spellings etc. A year ago he was predicted a level 6 now it is lower with the new harder grades.

JeremyCorbyn as you have a DC in yr6 I'm guessing you've done the rounds of your local secondary schools. If that is the case how many of them mentioned how important the yr 6 SATs results are to them and did you actually ask them what they used them for?

Do any of your local secondary schools carry out their own assessments before/early in yr 7? If so why do you think they do this if SATs are a "good measurement"?

How many of your secondary schools set or stream based only on SATs results?

How many of your secondary schools predict GCSE grades based only on SATs results?

Yes MumTryingHerBest your right, the SATs were hardly mentioned in the secondary round. And I was told by one teacher, in a one on one conversation, that the first term would be taken up doing assessments as the currents SATs results are unreliable due to some primaries gaming the system.

Now it occurs to me that if SATs were made more rigorous and tightened up to avoid this then there would be an extra term at secondary to provide more learning.

SATs should be a good measure for telling if a child isn't up to expected standards. But it is very useful for when you are choosing a primary school. Achievement is one of the factors that a lot of parents look at.

JeremyCorbyn I have to say that your reasoning behind your support for yr 6 SATs are a little odd.

If teachers/schools have felt the need to "game the system" why exactly do you think those same teachers/schools will no longer feel the need to game the system when the tests are harder?

But it is very useful for when you are choosing a primary school. Achievement is one of the factors that a lot of parents look at.

Selecting a school on the basis of one figure on a piece of paper has got to be the worst possible way of selecting a school. For this very reason I think SATs are of no use in helping parents choose a school unless considered alongside the underlying facts/data which, from my experience, many parents don't both with.

I would also add that I think SATs results are meaningless in areas where there are high levels of private tution (Google SATs tution, business is booming).

MumTryingHerBest, SATs might not be the best method of measuring achievement but it is one that parents like me use. Maybe teachers could propose a better system rather than just boycotting this one.

tiggytape, why is competition amongst pupils to improve a bad thing. In a global system we need to be able to compete against China, so pushing academic standards needs to start at primary.

itsallbetter your children are the same age as mine.

My Y6 son has not been given any extra work to do over Easter. My Y9 daughter wasn't when she did hers either.

Both of them are aware of what SATS are and have had it drummed into them about how important they are. I, personally, have told my children that the school are being measured, not them and that they will do CATS as soon as they hit secondary school anyway.

Yes MumTryingHerBest your right, the SATs were hardly mentioned in the secondary round. And I was told by one teacher, in a one on one conversation, that the first term would be taken up doing assessments as the currents SATs results are unreliable due to some primaries gaming the system.

Which will be exactly the same issue with the new tests. The gaming the system part comes from spending the entire year teaching to the tests, with booster groups for those around borderlines and endless practice test papers. It results in a child that can pass the test but might not be working consistently at that level.

The thing that causes that is an assessment based on a test per subject and that being used to grade schools and teachers. Which will be exactly the same under the new system. If anything it's going to get worse. And it has certainly got worse this year, particularly with the writing and grammar.

Also 'SATs are a good measurement' and 'SATs are unreliable' would seem to be mutually exclusive points of view.

JeremyCorbyn - SATs might not be the best method of measuring achievement but it is one that parents like me use

I see. Out of interest how did you determine how much the school contributed to the SATs results and how much was influenced by other factors e.g. tution/extra support from parents - after all these have nothing to do with how good a school is.

How did you determine whether your DCs school was "gaming the system" prior to selecting it?

JeremyCorbyn Maybe teachers could propose a better system rather than just boycotting this one.

If they did propose a different system, do you really think anyone would listen. No one is listening to them when they say that academising all schools will not improve standards. No one is listening to them when they say that implementing the changes to the SATs is not a good idea.

In fact, even you are not listening to them, you are telling them they don't know what they are talking about when they say that the proposed changes are a bad idea. So please do tell me why you think anyone, including yourself, will listen to them if they propose a different system?

In a global system we need to be able to compete against China.

Do children in China do SATs?

Also bear in mind that many private/indie schools do not do SATs, so how are standards maintained in those schools? How do parents identify which of those schools are good?

JeremyCorbyn I will also add that the changes being pushed through will/have cost money. Is this really money well spent? Will this huge financial investment really improve teaching/education in this country.

In a global system we need to be able to compete against China, so pushing academic standards needs to start at primary.

Ok-in China, teachers have only 30-40% teaching time-the rest is spent preparing lessons and shadowing other teachers.

Let's give that one a try, shall we?

lots of comments, will try and summarize answer.

I am not a cheer leader for SATs but whats the better alternative on offer? so its easy to say "if teachers did propose a different system, do you really think anyone would listen". Until teachers do, its just empty words. I think you are confusing listening to us, to agreeing with. Personally I would listen to them and if those teachers set up a free school with their ethos I would consider using it.

I dont really mind how much private tuition/ parental support contributed to the schools SATs, it all achieves the same goal, education. And like I said its one of the factors, not the sole one. I imagine some schools in more challenging areas get worse results but still achieve better progress over the seven years, or some schools provide more nurturing creative environments.

Private/indie schools maintain standards by their selective admissions process...

Why would secondary schools mention SATs, they are a primary exam.

Ok-in China, teachers have only 30-40% teaching time-the rest is spent preparing lessons and shadowing other teachers. How many hours does this equal?

My 10 yr old with ASD is doing SATs this time. He is a wreck following the pressure that has been put on them since last June .
Year 6 for him has been all about SATs. Working towards the tests.
I wish we could pull him out as he is not coping at all.

My 15 yr old was babied and coached through his SATs, he ended up with 4s, which for him is above where he should be. This set him an unachievable target in GCSEs, which his secondary school would not amend. They therefore would not support him, we have been fobbed off each and every time we have been in asking for something to be done to help him.
We have ended up deregistering him as the pressure to work towards Bs in GCSEs (no idea what the equivalent is now), when he was struggling to work towards Es was affecting his mental health.

There must be more to life for our 10/11 year olds than allowing the majority of year 6 to be wasted on SATs.

No one is listening to them when they say that academising all schools will not improve standards. No one is listening to them when they say that implementing the changes to the SATs is not a good idea.

The problem is that "they" have objected to so many things that the messages are getting lost.

Motions at the NUT Conference this year have not only included issues regarding baseline assessment and Academisation, but alśo disability benefits and migration policy. Alongside calls to scrap OFSTED.

It does appear that the NUT object to anything this government has responsibility for, and that will undoubtedly undermine the messages it hopes to send regarding the issues that it's members are professionally responsible for.

Ministers have been criticised for not being qualified to make decisions about education. What qualifies NUT members to vote on immigration and national security?

I can't take anything you say seriously JeremyCorbyn as you have chosen such an absurd username.

PrettyBrightFireflies There are so many changes being pushed through at the same time (I don't think that is any coincidence either) that just selecting one issue at a time to champion will result in others going through to completion. If you see 6 bullets flying at you do you just try to dodge one or do you look for a way to avoid all of them?

Ministers have been criticised for not being qualified to make decisions about education. What qualifies NUT members to vote on immigration and national security?

I was not aware that the NUT was forcing through policies/changes to immigration and national security (links if you have them please). Voicing an objection and being in a position to make the necessary changes are two very different things.