how hard do you push?

[dadwithadaughter]

My 6 yr old is at a first rate London day school but not a hot house type. She is a confident and accomplished communicator and does really well in written and read English. She is about middle of the year in Maths and most other subjects. Her mother and I have the view we should allow her to be who she is so no extra homework and tutoring.

We are just beginning to think about London day schools and boarding. As far as we can tell at this early stage she might want to board. It looks like she is a bit below Cheltenham Ladies College standard, for example, but she is a bright kid and can probably raise her game with a bit of extra focus and some help.

I am very nervous about adding pressure. All the girls who got into St Pauls this year did so without tutoring and none of those who were being tutored got places. Speaks volumes!

Any thoughts about raising the game or just letting our children be who they are?

Hear me DadwD - the most important thing - over and above learning anything at all - is that your DD should be happy and should enjoy school. Take it from one who knows - one of our children was unhappy at school and the whole family was unhappy. We got to the point when we did not give a flier whether she learned anything whatsoever as long as she was happy.

There is too much emphasis on education at the moment - too much pressure for children, parents and teachers - and for what? Time we started asking what education is FOR.

MN164 I mean failure in any context, as I say in the very selective schools academic and other success is expected and failure to be avoided (B is for bad ) so they do not cultivate that resilience that makes you take on any challenge and learn from it if it doesn't work out. They find it hard to deal with not succeeding, or more crucially fear you are not going to succeed. I think some of the schools are beginning to work it out as an issue, and having "failure days" etc. but if I wish I had pushed in any direction it would have been out of their comfort zone, to learn to have a go for the sake of it, not simply to achieve success. Academically provided they worked hard they were always going to do well on that rail track, they are bright, but it is made out to be the only track in these schools (along with but never instead of "outstanding" -how they love that word - success in other activities and in terms of personal qualities). But the track it does actually get rocky post uni, there are fewer graduate opportunities on that track, most of their peers are taking less conventional tracks, they have to be flexible and to understand their weaknesses as well as strengths. I fear my DCs are approaching it without the confidence in their strengths (which they don't perceive as exceptional) and without accepting failure as a fact of life, to be learned from, not feared.

Socially they have been brought up to be inclusive and to respect others, we have always been careful to counteract that side effect of a private school education. They actually actively sought diverse friendship groups at school and uni, partly because part of their education was whilst living in another culture, and I would recommend to anyone who has the opportunity to expose their children to other cultures.

"However sailing through a system focused on academic success has left them ill equipped to deal with the normal adversity they have found in the real world."
Many who haven't "sailed" through a system focusing on academic success are ill equipped to deal with normal adversity as well. The documented and significant rise in MH problems is teenagers is not just confined to the academically successful. As parents we need to equip our DC's with these skills in particular resilience.. But its easy to get a tutor in if your DC is falling behind in math or purchase 11+ practice papers but teaching resilience to cope with lifes normal ups and downs is much harder and of course not quantifiable.
I work with children and I worry that we are developing this culture of you must be happy all the time, that you're not allowed to have sad days, or feel stressed that this is abnormal. I'm concerned mistakes that some teenagers make are too heavily punished and so they never learn from them because the punishment has been so draconian that they've been completely knocked off their perches. From talking to teenagers there is a lot of pressure on children to make decisions about their subject choices/universities etc often far to early in their young lives and they fear making the "wrong" decision and believe that its irreversible. Many are now so stressed about exams and believe that if you cock up your exams don't go to X university that the world will virtually come to an end. As adults and parents with all our life experiences we know this simply isn't true.

OP teach your DD that success and failure are part of life, that its normal for us to have days when we're up beat and days when we're not, that some stress in our lives is not bad it makes us get up and do things and change things. My friends DC has recently died she'll tell you exams which school they go to, what grade their get in an instrument what university they attend is all meaningless forget it, don't spend a single moment stressing over any of it but instead count your lucky stars every day that you have them whether they doing well or failing everything at least you have them.

Greenleave: Year 3 is definitely not too late, so don't stress. At this stage, nurturing a DC's innate curiosity - through various exploratory activities - is much more valuable/helpful (for 11+ exams and beyond) and enjoyable than drowning him/her in practice papers.

As I mentioned previously, I think it is necessary to prepare but one need not go overboard. We were actively involved in preparing DD because she attended a primary school that didn't prepare students at all for the 11+ (they were upfront about it so we had no issue). But DD didn't give up summer holidays or any of her music or sports activities and she didn't do endless 11+ exercises. We also took a broad view of preparation - to open up DD's mind, ensure fundamental building blocks are in place, etc rather than to simply pass 11+ exams - as a result, drew on a variety of materials to try to make it interesting/fun, including things picked up on my business travels. So, it need not be a dreaded and dreadful experience.

I would add that I have spent my DCs school careers trying to counteract all this, not only have I not pushed, I have been almost horizontal in trying to take the pressure of, and indeed for one DC doing 11+ we were relieved to not even be in the same country. I fear for the self esteem of those DCs being put through a tutoring boot camp who perceive that parental love is conditional on a narrow measure of success in terms of places at schools at the top of the league tables (the aspirational ones that filled up these pages not so long ago) with what must feel like a huge margin for failure. It is hard to convey the madness that descends on the London parents that OP is going to encounter in particular.

I think there is a balance. On one hand children need to be pushed to reach their potential but they must not be over stressed.
I am interested to see how in some Asian countries they manage this same thing.
I agree on the emphasis to be permenantly happy all the time is awful. We are creating an artificial environment where kids cannot cope when they come across an issue. Or being sad is pathologised to an illness.
Equipping them to cope with life's knocks and striving to do their best should be the goal.
I don't agree that there is a huge emphasis on education - the UK is not producing enough qualified graduates to fill many roles we need. We lack engineers and scientists, teachers and doctors.

"I am interested to see how in some Asian countries they manage this same thing"
My experience of a child educated in Asia is that its a soulless, joyless process, where success at everything whether its in academic subjects playing an instrument in an orchestra to throwing a ball is the only of any value if you achieve top grades or win a competition. That there is no such a thing as learning for the sake of it, you dont listen to music or read a play for simple pleasure everything has to be linked into exam success or competitions.

I know teachers in International Schools in Asia who have to cope with scary levels of mental illness and dysfunction, and their parents are seeking something less pushy / wealthy enough to educate them in the western system. Just because it is not acknowledged does not means it doesn't exist.

There is a cultural aspect too, the Asian education system is rooted in the language (relying on pictorial memory, not grammatically complex) and culture including thousands of years of emphasis on rote learning and examination as a root to meritocracy. It is actually evolving away from that in response to pressure from parents and the acknowledged need for different skill sets. Why does anyone think that what works in Asia will work here with a very different cultural context and heritage. The Finns manage to do quite well with an entirely different, child centred and exam free (to 16) system.

"what works in Asia "
Is it working well, as you say wealthy Asian parents are seeking education in the west because they're looking for a different more holistic system.
OK maybe our children's Asian counterparts may be reading earlier or do math better and earlier but this is not everything. Early mental health problems and dyfuntionality do not set you up to cope with adult life.

No I agree, that is only based on the various attainment tables that tend to put Asia ahead in literacy and numeracy that people tend to quote as indicative of it working. The PISA inspectors turn up to the most successful schools in eg Shanghai, and accept the propaganda hook line and sinker. Not only may they not be seeing the levels of mental health problems but they also didn't see the actual levels of education in the schools elsewhere in China. Nor do I see how you compare literacy skills in languages that are so fundamentally different in structure.

I do think there is another aspect to the mental health problems I have seen though, and it is certainly true in Asia. That the high expectations and push ones academically do sometimes go hand in glove with self indulgent parenting, parents who have little time left after work and social engagements to appreciate what their children's lives are actually like and the boundary's that should be in place to protect them on both social media and in relation to socialising in real life. They delegate the academic and other activities to tutors, schools, music teachers and sports clubs and neglect the rest.

*pushiness

Our school system although not as bad as that in parts of Asia seems equally maladjusted. I was telling a friend, whos DS's were very successfully educated in Europe, that at some London prep schools 3 and 4 year olds are undergoing some sort of testing for very oversubscribed independent schools, she said this would never happen where they lived and what the hell are they looking for or expecting? .

From what I gather the ones selected at 4 don't seem to have a vastly different ability profile to the non selective Preps. They tend to serve the GDST schools around here and all but a couple would get in at 11 from most non selective Preps. I applied to one for the pfb because I was naive and the nursery thought I should do, as I recall because she was so articulate precosious about a sunset. She went and drew a few triangles, but had no chance to wax lyrical about the sunset and it turned out it was the triangles you were supposed to have taught them about not to appreciate sunsets and be able to describe one, so she didn't get in. I gather from the Ed Psych there is no way to assess ability before 6/7 so I suppose they are just assessing which parents have their priorities right Only a tiny bit of me wants to let them know what they missed, honest

"I gather from the Ed Psych there is no way to assess ability before 6/7"
Some children very occasionally do show an extraordinary ability from a very early age, Mozart being the most obvious example. I believe some math geniuses show an untaught outstanding ability even as tiny children.
But one has to ask what does it matter? Does it make you a better person? A happier person? Will you form happier and longer lasting relationships as you get older? Be healthier? Of course you wont.

Randomparent: if its too late for 11+ even then we wont choose 11+ route, year 3 and works everyday and weekends with an aim of passing a test( rather than a passion to a particular subject) in 2 years time is plainly wrong. What happen if the child missed out the test date, if the child doesnt have the scholarship while the child loves the school so much and thought it was the only school. I would extend my children "free of exam pressure" until later, it could be then 13+ and even 16+. Learning is for life and in long run and passing and/or failing a test shouldnt make the child feel like end of the future. At 30+ years old and I still have exams to take (CFA) and even once its done then there are always learning at work to keep me posted. There was a lady from anothe thread had her piano lession again at 50+ years old and had a distiction with it

I am now schielding myself from any heated 11+ discussion with my friends as the pressure is just too much. It looks like a child is judged on a basis how did he/she do with 11+(or 7+ or GCSE).

Regarding to the Asian vs Western learning/exam culture: the fact is Asian is overtaking Western in any field, sooner or later mainly because their working ethics. As an Asian I found my life here is much easier and less pressurised and the same to my children( the pressure I have all from my Asian friends who did brilliantly in academic and have excellent jobs and expect their children to be better)

You sound like a lovely parent who is doing everything right - expanding horizons in a non-pushy way, engaged with your DD's life and schooling, aware of how important the joy of learning is for the future. It's very much how we are raising our DDs. We don't live in the rarefied world of London private schools, but we've always taken much the same approach. Our DDs are 13 and 15 and in our local state comp, enjoying school, doing really well. DD1 (yr 10) is getting stellar exam results. We don't have to push her to revise, she just does it all. She works hard, she plays hard, she has fun, friends and hobbies. That is where your kind of parenting leads. Just go for it.

This is a quote from DS16 tonight, about to take his GCSE's, and a pretty bright cookie. 'Mum, I know what I am capable of, I know I am good at taking pressure, I am so glad you are so laid back as I don't want to feel stressed, I won't achieve what I am capable of achieving if I feel pressured'

Which says it all really

I could be wrong, she is my first child, I might be too naive, I aim high(or very high) too. Just the 11+ competition among parents/friends drove me to the point where I find I have to shield us out. We do maths questions on nrich, we have a family mental maths competition, we have a massive book case filled with all type of books, news papers subscribed etc, just not doing questions in printed books yet. There could be catch up in year 5, she might have to do a little catch up compare to a child who preps for years. We are not a super relaxing family though as I am not a relaxed type(small example like after every swimming lesson, I make sure she goes for another 10 laps after to practise. We practise music almost everyday etc). I just know she wont be a cheery happy girl and especially losing her creativity if we ask her to sit down for 11+ from now. Many moms here remind me everyday 1 thing, the secret is in "balancing"

I do think selection at age 3/4 is slightly helpful from the schools perspective - they will pick especially able pupils and weed out those with SEN, plus ensure they get 'the right sort' of parents. It's a horrible system, but this is what happens when there are far more pupils than places.

OP I would say that In all honesty, she may miss out on a top top London day school place if she is not tutored that much, but I would argue her childhood is more valuable than a big name school.

I think as long as you continue to build up general skills and a love of learning she will be fine.

But they have no way of selecting the most able or weeding out all but the most obvious SEN, that is the point. There is no way of distinguishing any but the very rare exceptionally bright, or indeed all but the most obvious SEN, before 7. All these schools end up with children that down the line, at 7 or 11 end up going elsewhere because it was not the right environment. The good schools are honest about that and do a lottery at 4 and selection at 7. Knowing what I know now I would not put my 4 year old through selection because you risk a negative experience for your child.

whatwouldrondo
I don't think that's quite true, I think a lot of SEN is easy to spot before age 7. Before age 4 I agree it would be harder.

Even if a school at age 4+ try to take the kids who can do maths / who are proficient readers and filter out those who have SEN they are still increasing their chances of having a brighter cohort than for example a totally random ballot system. I don't think it's a very nice system to have, but I imagine it's more effective for the school than none at all. Horrible for the kids, but if they're going through it I imagine there will be worse things ahead.

Urgentschool help I have been through the system and the pupils schools select at 4 really do not do better than those from non selective preps at 11, and certainly not by 24, even with 20 years of tutoring to push them through every stage of the process. But the confidence of some of those pupils really suffer as a result of struggling, especially given that most selective Preps have a further selective intake at 7. And frankly I would not as a professional educationalist want that on my conscience let alone that little 4 year old were spending hours learning triangles instead of playing and developing natural curiousity. That is why I would not want my child's to go to such a school.

What do you mean by the sort of SEN that such schools should want to exclude. The sort of SEN you find at non selective Preps tends to be mild to moderate Specific Learning Difficulties but with support those pupils have gone on to selective secondaries including the most selective, and top universities. If Westminster have 10% of pupils with SEN why would these schools be seeking to exclude such pupils when it is in any case hard to identify with any certainty at that age? In fact the only school I know that does that actively is Ibstock, more selective schools like LEH have an inclusive strategy focused on ability not SEN. Or do you mean those of low ability? Something entirely different

I have noticed that the fashion in the past few years has moved from intense parental pushing with parents being quite upfront about it, to intense and planned "non pushing", with parents waxing lyrically about how their child didn't need to be tutored, it was all down to a weekly subscription of First News and a diet of books from the local library..

I'd love it this were true, but somehow doubt it. If anything, the stakes are getting higher. It isn't good enough to do swimming class, your child must be in a swimming club. Rugby? Great for school application forms! It never stops.

I fear that we are pushing our children to the point that childhood has changed in its meaning. No wonder that university lecturers write here of many students who can't cope when they leave the protective umbrella of their parents.

Whatwouldrondo
I'm not advocating the 4+ selection because I wouldn't want a child to go to a hothouse because I don't believe it's healthy, I'm just giving my take on why it happens. Interesting to hear your take on it. Do you think 4+ selection would affect 7+ results? I'd imagine it would?

Also, what Prep would you give as an example of a non selective one (I'm more familiar with north and central London than SW)? Or alternatively, what sort of entry process? I'd describe our Prep as non selective, but DC still had to go for a 2 hour play session and chat to the teachers, which would be somewhat selective I imagine.

whatwouldrondo

if Westminster have 10% of pupils with SEN why would these schools be seeking to exclude such pupils
I have no idea of the specifics of what sort of SEN they are looking to exclude, but I believe it is anything they feel they don't "have the resources to deal with" or which may in the future affect academic ability......I'd be speechless if you'd never heard of a DC being denied a place due to SEN!!! rummages for rejection letters from Preps stating academics fine but citing DSs SEN as the reason Honestly, there are tons of MNers you can ask for their accounts of this.