how hard do you push?

[dadwithadaughter]

My 6 yr old is at a first rate London day school but not a hot house type. She is a confident and accomplished communicator and does really well in written and read English. She is about middle of the year in Maths and most other subjects. Her mother and I have the view we should allow her to be who she is so no extra homework and tutoring.

We are just beginning to think about London day schools and boarding. As far as we can tell at this early stage she might want to board. It looks like she is a bit below Cheltenham Ladies College standard, for example, but she is a bright kid and can probably raise her game with a bit of extra focus and some help.

I am very nervous about adding pressure. All the girls who got into St Pauls this year did so without tutoring and none of those who were being tutored got places. Speaks volumes!

Any thoughts about raising the game or just letting our children be who they are?

@happygardening you have touched on something very close to my heart. I am very concerned that my DD's generation will have no real context for modern history unless I get it into an album. I have begged both my MIL and my father to write down their experiences and those of their distant relatives - to no avail. I have even offered my Dad a leggy research assistant!

I am absolutely determined to pass on to DD the atrocities of the Holocaust and the broader Zionist struggle through travel to Germany and Israel at an appropriate time and through friend's families.

I am equally determined that this will be illustrated through family experience.

I have started collecting documents and photos - I have a box of letters from family in WW2 trenches, photos of my father's Land Rover in Nigeria on National Service; my grandfather's personal navigation book on his voyage from London to Buenos Aires before and how he became an drunk at sea during the war. My other grandfather serving on Hood before it was sunk by the Bizmark. Most importantly I want her to understand that Londoners slept in the subway during the Blitz - so far removed from our lives today even though we are surrounded by its evidence.

Thank you for your post. I would welcome any further thoughts you might have.

For our DD when we looked at schools for eleven plus when she was 9 and 10 we took her with us. Some of the schools inspired her to want to go. So she worked hard as they just happened to be selective schools. She identified with the girls at those schools. We didn't put any pressure on her, but she did put pressure on herself. We supported her and she didn't have a tutor but we found out about the tests and guided her. She got an amazing offer from a highly sought after indie and and a top state grammar. She could have coasted and stayed at her current indie school but she didn't feel stretched there and wanted the change. The indie didn't support any of this as they were warning DD to stay onto their senior school.

So I'd say when your DD is a bit older, involve her in the choice. Part of bringing them up is helping them make their path, with guidance of course. Discuss the schools you both like and what would be needed to get there. Six is a bit early but no harm in thinking about it and researching. You also need conversations when they understand the concept of trying and failing. DD was quite inspired by lots of figures of business and sports people who hadn't got to their goal at first attempt but achieved great things in the end as they didn't let that disappointment or hurdle beat them.

Definitely leave her be - she is a child, not a receptacle for knowledge to be programmed.

She only gets one crack at being a child - an important and precious time.

Please bear in mind that thousands of children go to rural schools and they fall off the top of the system with good qualifications and find good jobs. The hothouse effect of being in the capital and subjected to all the pressures of competitive parenthood can feel like reality - it is not - it is just one aspect of it.

OP my greatest regrets is that I have no recording of my mother talking about being evacuated. She was never allowed back to London during the war but my grand parents lived in South Ken and clearly remember people sleeping on the escalators at the station at night. My mother came back to London on VE Day and joined everyone else celebrating and saw the King and Queen again no recording of her her recounting this event. If you can do it. When your children are little they may not appreciate it but when they are older I believe they will, my DS's were fascinated and moved by my mothers ration cards etc. the letters from prison we have, and a memorial service order of service for a gay man who killed himself just after he was released from prison I also have photos etc don't let anyone throw these out (sometimes this is done when elderly people move into nursing homes etc) as it is a link to their pasts and most importantly once our parents, their grand parents have died this is all we have left of these very important historical events.

Thank you happygardening for your advice on Rudyard Kippling. We also had these on audio for the car. As you say, it is heart-bursting to hear your children recycle great language into every day conversation. Also, that you for the stories about your grandparents, which almost exactly mirror those of my family - as you say, the challenge is to capture these for the future when history will mean more to our children.

"All the girls who got into St Pauls this year did so without tutoring and none of those who were being tutored got places. Speaks volumes!"

I would bet my house on this not being true!

BertrandRussell My DD's girls headmistress told a group of us parents at a school orientation that none of this years placements at St Pauls (i think there were 4 this year) were tutored, whereas all the applicants who failed to get places were heavily tutored. I have no reason to doubt her.

I assume that

1. She was making the point that our daughters will find their own level

1. Natural ability trumps aggressive tutoring, provided the school is doing an excellent teaching job

1. Additional help is given by the school rather than by external tutors. She is not against tutoring.

My DD goes to a top flight school and she is 6 yrs. The school talk was incredibly interesting; principally setting the scene for how the girls are prepared for exams in the coming years and how this prep differs from the boys half of the school.

The school is generally assumed to be one of the least hot housey of the SW1 / SW7 group of excellent schools, however the girls placements were pretty impressive this year. Perhaps this is luck. Perhaps the story about tutoring is just coincidence. I just thought it interesting info and useful. I am in favour of tutoring where it helps, but my DD is only 6 so at this stage any tutoring would be to build confidence rather than raise the bar.

BertrandRussell just to be clear, the girls headmistress was referring to tutoring girls at my DD's school in relation to St Pauls Girls School, not tutoring generally for girls trying to get into St Pauls from other schools. I am sure that tutoring is rife in the scrabble to compete for a few places.

I realise that my initial post might not have been clear. I would want you to be homeless!

Dad- bear in mind that parents don't always tell the truth-even to Headmistresses!

There is at least one very heavily tutored girl heading to spgs this year. I'm sure there are a lot more. It makes me quite sad that St. Paul's can't spot these girls. They say they want the girls who think independently but they seem to skip quite a number with a long term proven track record of academic excellence. I tried talking my friend out of it, spgs wasn't even her daughter's first choice. My friend is happy to continue tutoring....and tutoring.

Eatmoremango: "...they seem to skip quite a number with a long term proven track record of academic excellence."

I am intrigued by your comment. Can you elaborate?

BertrandRussell it had never occurred to me that a parent would conceal tutoring from their school. I must be naïve - but isn't that's just plain nuts?

I think the girls HM remarks about tutoring girls at her school were more about telling the parents to relax a bit than anything else. I very much doubt she lied. Our DD's aren't yet in their stride and also trying to turn them into something they are not has consequences.

However, if my daughter when she is older wants to go to St Pauls and if she was almost at the standard required to get a place with some extra tutoring - will I get that help for her? Damn right I will.

dadwithadaughter it had never occurred to me that a parent would conceal tutoring from their school

If it is taking place outside the school, why would they feel they have to nofify the school?

I think the girls HM remarks about tutoring girls at her school were more about telling the parents to relax a bit than anything else.

If the parents all had 6 yr old DCs then it is quite likely the HM was telling them to relax. However, I would say it is also unlikely that many HMs at privates/indies are going to promote the fact that their impressive leavers destinations/exam results are being heavily supplemented by external tution.

However, if my daughter when she is older wants to go to St Pauls and if she was almost at the standard required to get a place with some extra tutoring - will I get that help for her? Damn right I will.

Yet you question whether other parents are doing the same?

If you are paying for prep school, let them do any pushing.

No heads going to say you not only need to stump up 16k pa in fees but also heavily tutor from yr 4 yo get your DD into SPGS. Any parent with a brain is going to say "hang on a minute why am I paying twice?"
If your DD is at an outstanding prep with a proven track record of getting them into schools like SPGS then I think you need to seriously think hard about tutoring her if she's borderline? Will you carry on tutoring all through her school career to enable her to keep up at a school like SPGS.
I can understand tutoring borderline candidates if they're in rubbish schools in either sector or providing tutoring if they're briefly struggling in one area, we tutored DS2 in Latin for the Winchester entrance exam when the old Latin teacher retired and we discovered that the new teacher knew only marginally more Latin than my dog (my husband who hadn't done Latin for 30 years noticed he was marking mistakes as correct and correct answers as wrong!). But if they're at a good prep with good teachers and your DC is borderline I'm far from convinced that tutoring to get them into a particular school is the right thing to do.
I also think it's a big ask to expect any school to correctly identify those who are the borderline candidates who've been tutored from those who are the very strong candidates at what I'm assuming in most cases is a relatively short interview and looking at entrance exam/pre test results.

Randomparent, for the case l'm particularly talking about, the girl who made it to interview but was passed over had consistently been the top of her year at school. Our prep school did SATS and other testing. The girl performed exceptionally well at maths and general knowledge challenges and played lots of sport. My friend's dd did not do any of this was was consistently middle of the class until grade 6. No sport because of multi night tutoring. I know the primary schools heads have to give a report but this must hold less influence than I thought it did. I also believed that it was in the best interest of the primary school to have an honest relationship with spgs. In my dd's year, there were two other girls her equal who didn't make it but a girl with a tutor who did. I just wonder why the primary school ranking can't be taken into account more, it might give a more fair and long range view. My friend has made no secret of the tutoring, the prep school must have known.

When people ask me about St Pauls and tutoring, I used to say you would be crazy to. Why would you want your daughter to be in a position where they can't keep up with the rest of the class? Now however, I'll prob change my line to tutoring bc lots seem to be. It's an arms race.

Even if you work from the basis all primary school heads/ teaching staff would be 100% honest and correct, primary school ranking says nothing about ability. One child could be an outlier in their class but nationally only just scrape in to the top 15%, another could be just average in their v high ability class and still well within spgs standard. Not to mention that would mean any dc that went to a primary that was useless with high ability wouldn't stand a chance.

Thanks, Eatmoremango. In my view, a fair amount of preparation is required for SPGS, Westminster and other highly selective schools, with assistance given by the primary school, external tutors and/or parents - I suppose it is a matter of degree. Having said that, I have heard (via MN) of a few successful applicants who prepared by taking the SPGS sample exams only.

I have no idea how much weight schools give to a DD's primary school record but if the DD you mentioned made it to interview, I would imagine SPGS may have focused more on "fit" rather than ability.

Thank you to everyone for your very helpful contributions. I am not sure where we got to exactly.

We have chosen not to tutor our DD to artificially raise her results, except if it's a short-term action to build confidence, or perhaps in future years to accelerate her in one or two subjects when she gets close to exams. In the later case we would only do this if she wants to get into a particular school and her current teachers think it's a good idea.

Weeding through this thread there is clearly a mistrust of some schools motives; fortunately I don't feel this with my DD's current school. They have been brilliant and my wife and I consider them partners in our DD's education and general development. Not all parents at the school feel the same at the school, but c'est la vie!

The clearest message from this thread is that what we are doing now with our DD is probably what most people posting would also do; let our DD develop naturally.

I am surprised at the lack of enthusiasm for pushing our children to achieve. It's not at all reflective of some parents I meet. Perhaps MN posters are a particularly civilised group.

Thank you all again

We havent started the battle and I feel I am losing friends over it. There has been already too much coaching and pressure even the children are G&T registered, very bright, doing really well. The child complain not only to the parents however also to the teacher about the stress she is having daily and the parents are still aiming for scholarship to a top school. Honestly, as an adult we know the concept no pain, no gain but to what extend!!!? I am on the other hand starting to be worried as I havent started pushing my child and it might be too late(yr3 now). To kill the time and pressure we focus on extra curr activities such as music, swimming, other sports...In my head for a 8 years old and sitting doing sheets and sheets of tests is wrong, its still supposed to be fun, at least until a another year. For me now its time to do a little mumsnet research to get to know schools, exams, tests, preparation however def no pressure to the little one yet!

Greenleave thank you for your post. Can you tell me what G&T registered means.

G&T is Gifted and Talented.

For balance, DS goes to a non selective state school. He hasn't been tutored at any point, nor would I want him to be. He's just deciding if he would like to apply for Oxbridge.

DN is already there, with similar circumstances, and DN2 applies this year.

It's perfectly possible, without money or circumstance or most importantly pressure, to achieve academically.

Sorry, this post probably isn't relevant but I am a bit [shocked] at the above, but must confess ignorance re the school system where you are.

dadwithadaughter Speaking from the other end of the process, the pushing, tutoring etc is almost entirely a result of parental anxiety rather than need, unless you are aiming for state grammar schools that still use the rubbish reasoning tests they have not invested in making unpredictable. Even then most are moving to less tutorable tests and hopefully will get there in the coming years. All the most selective private schools are looking for ability and potential and are very good at seeing through the tutoring. If you were at a state school, or private school ideologically or commercially because they want to hang on to pupils for senior schools opposed to selection then you would need to do some work with your child in the months coming up to the exams, either yourself or with a good tutor (not a factory where the poor children are crammed around a kitchen table doing tests on repeat) just to familiarise them with exam conditions, ensure they had covered the syllabus and help them with any weaknesses. But for the rest of their primary education focus on stimulating their enthusiasm for learning, making it a joy. I am pleased both of my DCs have a deep fascination for their chosen and completely different areas of study.

Unfortunately too many parents get whipped up by Chinese whispers into a state of anxiety and fear and then, often covertly, so they must know instinctively it isn't right, become vulnerable to the tutoring industry and start tutoring at ever younger ages.

From the other end what are the qualities I would have focused on for my DCs? Confidence and resilience. They have both been very successful academically by any standards but the London private school system, and very selective schools, has left them feeling like commodities. The best decision we took was supporting the decision of one to go to a less selective school for sixth form where she felt encouraged and supported to succeed rather than expected, and did better than she would have done at the more selective school. All good schools will enable a bright child to achieve their potential, selectivity is just a self reinforcing circle of being able to select the pupils who will do best in exams. However sailing through a system focused on academic success has left them ill equipped to deal with the normal adversity they have found in the real world.

"However sailing through a system focused on academic success has left them ill equipped to deal with the normal adversity they have found in the real world."

That is a statement worthy of analysis. I assume it does not refer to the rail track leading to university and thereafter graduate jobs. That path seems to have very narrow focus on academics and results in people as a commodity.

I assume the "adversity .. in the real world" is something else. Perhaps it means social life or perhaps it means later working life?

Thoughts?