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Original poster

Are students disadvantaged by choosing double award science over triple?

56 replies

Sara121 · 04/02/2016 12:36

Hi.

My daughter is in the process of choosing her GCSEs. She would be very capable of doing the three sciences individually however would prefer to choose core plus additional so that she can do an extra humanity subject as at this point she has no idea what she wants to do. We are concerned that should she decide to go down the science route for A level, her lack of triple science at GCSE may work against her if she decides to apply to a Russell Group university. Officially this shouldn't be a problem but informally I have heard that at certain universities it would work against her. Does anyone have any experience they could share? thanks.

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 04/02/2016 15:50

"
Beerty??? Sorry, BertrandRussell!"

Make that sauvignonblanctyGrin

PurpleDaisies · 04/02/2016 15:50

I have never come across any state sixth form that insists on triple science for science a levels. Anyone care to name and shame any?

teacherwith2kids · 04/02/2016 15:51

Surely it could be taken to the Schools Adjudicator for a ruling on admission requirements of that type, then?

EricNorthmanSucks · 04/02/2016 15:55

purple why should those sixth forms be shamed.

It is those secondary schools that refuse to offer triple that outhit to be ashamed. And a government that allows them to do so.

disquisitiones · 04/02/2016 15:58

I have never come across any state sixth form that insists on triple science for science a levels.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are some grammars which do.

I would be surprised by a sixth form college with 1200 entry insisting on triple science. Well-known sixth form colleges such as Hills Road, Peter Symonds etc certainly don't, as not all feeder schools do triple science.

PurpleDaisies · 04/02/2016 16:15

For all the reason set out in the thread Eric-triple science is not available to all pupils so those having done double (which are usually from schools with deprived catchment areas) should not be discriminated against.

HildaFlorence · 04/02/2016 16:20

Haven't read whole thread , but my ds did double in order to do an extra humanity. He got 5A* and 5As and hot 5 offers from RG universities . Other ds is doing triple because he's much more likely to do science As

EricNorthmanSucks · 04/02/2016 16:23

disquit the ones I know of are sixth forms attached to schools.

Science A levels are filled by exisiting students (from their triple stream) and the few places left over are given to the outside applicants who have the best qulifications.

disquisitiones · 04/02/2016 16:32

But will 3 8s at triple science really outrank 2 9s in double science under the new grading? Or are there so few places that they could really insist on 3 9s for sciences + 9 for maths? (I think Eric's DCs school could, but state grammars?)

I totally agree with Eric, btw, that the real scandal is that schools aren't offering triple science routinely to "high achievers" and finding space on the timetable for all high achievers to do triple science plus MFL/humanities options. The levels of science education in the UK are low by international standards.

PurpleDaisies · 04/02/2016 16:34

I totally agree that triple should be offered in all schools bug while that isn't happening it isn't fair for children that aren't able to do it lose out.

grumpysquash · 04/02/2016 16:38

*Grumpy,

If triple science is a freely available option in EVERY feeder school to the sixth form, then there would not be discrimination. But that is unlikely to be the case in a 1,200 intake.*

Actually I think this is probably partly the case. The feeder schools are all pretty good and as far as I know all offer triple science, although it may be top sets only, so not entirely a free choice.

I live in quite an affluent city and there are no really bad schools.

What I was trying to say upthread was not that you wouldn't get a place if you did double science, but rather that you would be at an advantage if you had done triple. I'm sure there are many exceptions to this, but as a sweeping statement......

grumpysquash · 04/02/2016 16:41

*They have about 5000 applications for 1200 places.

But how many offers do they make? Typically people apply for more than one sixth form and can receive several offers, which inflates the number of applications.

I find it hard to believe any (state) sixth form college will be in position to turn down a student with 9s in double science, just because it's not triple. There just won't be that many students coming in with 9s, so they will be using this as a filter as well.*

I don't know about the number of offers, but I think there is a high take up rate.

I completely agree with your last para - obviously a 9 in anything is excellent! I suspect the debate above applies more to the 7s and 6s.

EricNorthmanSucks · 04/02/2016 16:45

I don't know what the sixth forms will look for under the new GCSEs and if a couple of 9s will beat three 8s. We'll see.

In the meantime no one should be defending the schools who will not offer triple by dancing around saying double is 'no problem'.

PurpleDaisies · 04/02/2016 16:47

So eric you think the kids should be penalised for their schools not offering triple? Hmm

bigTillyMint · 04/02/2016 17:01

If she is likely to want to do one or more sciences at A level, I would urge her to do triple. My DGodD did double and is now struggling with Chemistry A level (seems OK with Biology)

They miss out a whole unit at GCSE doing double which obviously doesn't matter if they aren't planning to do sciences at A level, but if they are, they have to catch up. DGodD's school haven't put any additional teaching time into getting those that did double up to scratchAngry

Ironically, DD took triple and wished she had done double. She is doing all essay subjects at A level!

teacherwith2kids · 04/02/2016 17:29

I have just compared the A-level science results of 2 similar schools.

  • School X does only double science, does not offer triple, but is a very good school overall
  • School Y does triple science, and is overall also a very good school.

Both are popular and oversubscribed, both are leafy. Neither is selective.

The A-level science results are, to all intents and purposes, the same between the two schools. A slight variation in subject balance - School A had more Biologists, who did better, whereas school B did marginally better in Physics in the year I looked at - but from a single year view, there is no significant difference, which one might expect if triple is a good predictor of doing better at A-level. Both had Oxbridge STEM subject successes last year.

I suspect that what it shows is that doing double and then A-levels in the same school, which therefore starts A-levels from the starting point of double, is absolutely fine, as is doing triple in a school that then goes ion to teach A-level from that starting point, but a transfer from a 'double' school to a 'triple' school may be an issue.

PurpleDaisies · 04/02/2016 17:37

Having seen this very data for a local sixth form having done double at a school which only offers double makes no difference to a level outcome at all. At schools where triple is offered double award students tend to perform less well, but they usually come from lower sets so that explains the difference. Having taught science a levels, by Christmas you really can't tell who had done double and triple.

Grelton · 04/02/2016 17:53

Our Outstanding, oversubscribed and in a naice area comp only offers double.

sablepoot · 04/02/2016 17:53

When I was looking a sixth forms with my dc (~4-6yrs ago) there were definitely a very few who did insist on triple science as a prerequisite for science a levels. It would be nice to think this had changed by now, but I doubt it has.

Can't see why universities would care, as once you've done the science a levels you will have filled the gaps and much more. The only thing it indicates in some (but by no means all) schools is whether or not you were top set at GCSE, which isn't really all that relevant anyway as dc can improve or slip back in the rankings, or just have been plain misplaced for any number of reasons.

I always think a extra science GCSE is most use to non scientists (it's their last chance to study the subject) and an extra humanity or mfl GCSE is more use to a scientist (for the same reasons).

CointreauVersial · 04/02/2016 18:13

Neither of the two "good" secondaries in our naice middle-class town (far from being a "deprived catchment area"!) offer triple science - they only offer double. The local sixth form colleges and schools specify a B grade to be able to do A level, but I haven't found any that expected you to have triple science. Otherwise they'd end up with a very small intake!

I firmly believe that it's important to have an all-round selection of subjects at GCSE, and I also think that for the majority of children 9 or 10 GCSEs is perfectly adequate. Putting those two together, it's difficult to justify triple science for a lot of children, particularly for those who, when they choose their options, don't have a clue whether they will lean towards science or humanities.

bigTillyMint · 04/02/2016 18:18

It's fine to only offer double IF the school then "fills in the gaps" - probably more likely in a school that only offers double than in a school where there are mainly triples doing science A level and just a few doubles who get forgotten about.

balletgirlmum · 04/02/2016 18:32

The head of chemistry I emailed in the selective triple offering school said that several of their A level a* grades last year came from double scientists & there was no difference in outcome.

Meghashah123 · 07/09/2018 11:40

As far as I consider, there is slight disadvantage of choosing double over triple as Double science is two gcses, so you get a core science and additional science gcse, triple science is where you get seperate gcses for biology, chemistry and physics so you get three gcses. So you would sit more exams if you did triple.

Also, If we take analogy of iit jam M.S. there are two levels M.Sc. (double) and Integrated M.S. PhD equivalent to triple. The MSc gives core knwoledge.

Floottoot · 07/09/2018 11:53

Doesn't it depend how many hours are devoted to each of combined and triple?
DD's school (GDST school) this year has encouraged people to take the combined, on the basis that it won't impact A level choices. As such, they are teaching the triple in the same amount of lessons as the combined, so only the very highest achievers in science were encouraged/allowed to do it because of the pace they will have to work at.

The school says this is in response to previous years' pupils requesting the opportunity to take triple science without losing an option.

Sunflower321 · 07/09/2018 13:32

I firmly believe that it's important to have an all-round selection of subjects at GCSE, and I also think that for the majority of children 9 or 10 GCSEs is perfectly adequate. Putting those two together, it's difficult to justify triple science for a lot of children, particularly for those who, when they choose their options, don't have a clue whether they will lean towards science or humanities.

With 10 GCSEs it is easy to fit in 3 separate Sciences! That leaves 7 subjects including English, Maths, a humanity, a foreign language, an art/music and another.