Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Original poster

Intrigued by the 'bright child will succeed in any school'

254 replies

findasolution · 03/02/2016 16:46

This comment fascinates me. I am a long time Mumsnet user (name changed), making my first post as an OP.

I was a relatively bright child, straight As up to 3rd year of senior school (in old money), when things started to go wrong.

I got tired of being bullied for being smart and driven, lost my confidence to in being different and dumbed down/rebelled to fit in, resulting in leaving school with 4 O levels - way below my potential.

My mum sent me to a local comprehensive (West Midlands) because it used to be a 'grammar'. Such was the due diligence 30 plus years ago Grin. Couple of years after I left, each entry year was closed to allow the school to run out before the school closed, premises bought...at least there was a reason behind the teachers (most, not all) being completely disengaged with us.

Anyway, that's my background, and I know this is not reflective of most schools today. With so many making choices where they can, by religion; location; intelligence; cost etc allowing), I am really interested in people's opinions on how children can definitely achieve their full potential in any given secondary environment, and therefore considering alternatives to their local state schools is not necessary...

OP posts:
EricNorthmanSucks · 09/02/2016 09:09

I visit schools/sixth form colleges as part of outreach for university.

In 2015 I visited 29. Some more than once. Do I win a prize Grin?

So my focus is on high ability students. It is very very obvious to me which schools and colleges are offering an education appropriate to the needs of this group and which are not.

It is also very very obvious that those that are not will defend the indefensible to the bitter end.

RhodaBull · 09/02/2016 09:16

I think a problem is the focus on "bringing up the less able" which has been interpreted by some teachers/schools as "everyone must be the same level".

I have banged my head at the school on numerous occasions concerning English teaching. I always receive the party line that "the more able children bring on the less able ones" followed up by "helping others cements their knowledge of the topic". If I've heard that word "cement" once, I've heard it a hundred times.

One example of how schools don't perhaps care about the most able is when ds got a bad (for him) GCSE grade in his best subject. Dh rang the school immediately and the Deputy Head told him to stop whining, there were kids who had failed the whole thing which she had to concentrate her time on. It turned out that he had been scored on only one of two papers. But ds achieving an A* was not the school's priority at all. In fact dh went to the Head about this and I understand the Dep Head was soundly bollocked.

BoboChic · 09/02/2016 09:26

It's far easier to achieve equality by bringing down the able than by bringing up the less able.

BertrandRussell · 09/02/2016 09:40

"But ds achieving an A* was not the school's priority at all. In fact dh went to the Head about this and I understand the Dep Head was soundly bollocked."

So what happened was that your DP got a person who screwed up on the phone and got bollocked for it. Which presumably means that the Deputy Head was not following the school's policy?

Badbadbunny · 09/02/2016 09:50

It's far easier to achieve equality by bringing down the able than by bringing up the less able.

Agree 100% and that's the problem. The less able/disruptive take up far too much time leaving the well behaved and more able to coast.

senua · 09/02/2016 10:03

Which presumably means that the Deputy Head was not following the school's policy?

But it took a parent to notice the problem in the first place. I've had similar situations (

BertrandRussell · 09/02/2016 10:05

"Some schools really take the attitude of anything-above-a-D-will-do."

Not any more if they want a decent OFSTED. Any schools thinking like that now are going to get a vey nasty shock!

senua · 09/02/2016 10:19

Not any more if they want a decent OFSTED. Any schools thinking like that now are going to get a very nasty shock!

Thank goodness. But it took OFSTED / League Tables to force them into that way of thinking. The individual parent couldn't do it, it took a Government Directive to achieve that.
That's why we left that school as soon as possible and went somewhere more on-the-ball.

EricNorthmanSucks · 09/02/2016 10:23

Well let's wait and see what actually happens.

bert you've been telling me for years on MN that schools who did not deal properly with their most able would suffer consequences (whilst denying there was a real problem with this).

Forgive me if I am slightly cynical that P8 is going to be the new broom.

BertrandRussell · 09/02/2016 10:34

"bert you've been telling me for years on MN that schools who did not deal properly with their most able would suffer consequences (whilst denying there was a real problem with this)"

Forgive me, but I haven't said that. I have said that schools that think Cs will do, or where children do not make acceptable progress will suffer consequences. I have not said that schools will suffer consequences if they are not able to provide the sort of individualized provision for outliers that some mumsnetters seem to think they should be spending most of their time and budget on. I am pragmatic, I'm afraid. I know where I think limited resources should go. Yes, lobby for more funding for education. Never vote Tory. But dealing with the here and now, hard choices have to be made.

user789653241 · 09/02/2016 10:46

"schools will suffer consequences if they are not able to provide the sort of individualized provision for outliers that some mumsnetters seem to think they should be spending most of their time and budget on."

I really want to know somebody actually said that, bert.

EricNorthmanSucks · 09/02/2016 10:52

Offering triple science is not individualised treatment.

It is very basic provision for able scientists.

And yet nothing will happen to schools that don't provide it!

roundaboutthetown · 09/02/2016 11:04

Who counts as an outlier? Is that both those with the most severe learning disabilities and those with exceptional intelligence? I think, tbh, most mumsnetters have their sights set on children closer to the norm, rather than way of it, albeit at the higher end of the distribution curve - ie not children who can pick up and run with ideas with only very limited input, but children who with the right guidance and peer pressure can really develop the sophistication of their thinking, to the point that they can eventually learn how to keep developing those skills for themselves.

BertrandRussell · 09/02/2016 11:14

""schools will suffer consequences if they are not able to provide the sort of individualized provision for outliers that some mumsnetters seem to think they should be spending most of their time and budget on."

Sorry, nobody did. That was childish. But I do get exasperated by people thinking that budgets are unlimited.

Of course 3 sciences are best. I wish my child was doing 3. But nobody is put at a disadvantage by doing double award. And it is the best option for some.

disquisitiones · 09/02/2016 11:19

But nobody is put at a disadvantage by doing double award.

People who are refused entry to sixth form science because they only have double are at a disadvantage.

People who struggle to catch up with those who have triple science in year 12 are at a disadvantage.

But the biggest disadvantage of all is for those bright students who take double science and do no other science for the rest of their education: they leave with an utterly inferior science background relative to the rest of the world. (And then years later it affects our research base and our economy when said people become ministers of science and higher education and make inept decisions based on lobbying...)

BertrandRussell · 09/02/2016 11:21

6th forms are not allowed to discriminate against people with double award. Anecdotally, it takes less than a term to catch up.

EricNorthmanSucks · 09/02/2016 11:43

Of course sixth firms can and do discriminate.

BoboChic · 09/02/2016 12:16

But the biggest disadvantage of all is for those bright students who take double science and do no other science for the rest of their education: they leave with an utterly inferior science background relative to the rest of the world. (And then years later it affects our research base and our economy when said people become ministers of science and higher education and make inept decisions based on lobbying...)

Nearly everyone who is supposedly educated (has a degree) in the UK has an inferior basic education to the RO the developed W. Thanks to the A-level system.

Cherryburn · 09/02/2016 12:37

6th forms are not allowed to discriminate against people with double award. Anecdotally it takes less than a term to catch up.

As Eric says, I'm sure they can and do discriminate.

And why should they have to 'catch up'? The step up to A Level is hard enough without starting at a disadvantage. Do you really think that's acceptable Bertrand?

Blu · 09/02/2016 13:35

Sixth forms seem to discriminate on all sorts of grounds - I know very high performing students who have been denied offers due to being privately educated, saying they would take up the offer from their grammar as a priority if they get the grades, an interview being part of the selection process. Admission at sixth form seems to depart from all the good practice which is mandatory for secondary admission - equal preference, no interview, etc.

So it would be hard to prove that three sciences had been an actual criteria.

It is pretty shocking that BertR has no option to send her DS to a school that does 3 sciences.

BertrandRussell · 09/02/2016 13:37

Of course I don't think it's ideal. I wish everyone who wanted to could do any subject they want to. I hate that RE is compulsory but th can drop History. I wish every school offered a choice of 5 MFL.

But it can't happen.

And one of the least worst options is double, not triple science. Because compromises have to be made

And no, 6th forms cannot discriminate against people who have only been able to study double award. This has been frequently confirmed on threads like this in the past. They can discriminate against people who haven,t got th grades- but not against people who didn't study something that wasn't available to them.

Cherryburn · 09/02/2016 13:52

Bertrand I didn't ask you if you thought it was ideal. I asked if you thought it was acceptable.

BertrandRussell · 09/02/2016 13:59

Of course it's acceptable. Is it what I want for my child?. No. Is it ideal? No. But does it close any doors? No. Is it a tolerable compromise in times of dwindling resources? Reluctantly, yes.

BoboChic · 09/02/2016 14:00

Two MFL to a high standard is far better than a choice of five.

BertrandRussell · 09/02/2016 14:01

But in an ideal world there would be 5 to a high standard.

Swipe left for the next trending thread