Intrigued by the 'bright child will succeed in any school'

[findasolution]

This comment fascinates me. I am a long time Mumsnet user (name changed), making my first post as an OP.

I was a relatively bright child, straight As up to 3rd year of senior school (in old money), when things started to go wrong.

I got tired of being bullied for being smart and driven, lost my confidence to in being different and dumbed down/rebelled to fit in, resulting in leaving school with 4 O levels - way below my potential.

My mum sent me to a local comprehensive (West Midlands) because it used to be a 'grammar'. Such was the due diligence 30 plus years ago . Couple of years after I left, each entry year was closed to allow the school to run out before the school closed, premises bought...at least there was a reason behind the teachers (most, not all) being completely disengaged with us.

Anyway, that's my background, and I know this is not reflective of most schools today. With so many making choices where they can, by religion; location; intelligence; cost etc allowing), I am really interested in people's opinions on how children can definitely achieve their full potential in any given secondary environment, and therefore considering alternatives to their local state schools is not necessary...

[Badbadbunny]

My mum sent me to a local comprehensive (West Midlands) because it used to be a 'grammar'. Such was the due diligence 30 plus years ago

I feel your pain. At primary, I was top of the class and aiming for 11+ and the local grammar. Then they decided to merge it with the local sec mod and instead of taking the 11+ and going to the grammar in the next town (like many did), my parents believed the lies about how everyone would get a grammar education in the merged "comp".

It was a hell-hole. I've my school reports and the grades go down as each year passes. A's in year one, ending with only getting one O level at the end of the fifth year. Not a single teacher noticed the downward spiral, not even the form teacher who we had continuously for all five years.

The bullying was absolutely horrendous, not just name calling, but I also got cigarette burns from walking in the wrong place at the wrong time, spit in my hair, pens/pencils stolen, my bag regularly "stamped on" whilst I was carrying it, thus breaking the straps.

Teachers couldn't give a toss even though they knew what was going on.

So, no, not every bright child will succeed in any school. The environment can be absolutely toxic if your face doesn't fit, and that impacts on your education.

Sad to say, I never did forgive my parents for being too quick to believe the lies back in the 70s and not giving me the chance to go to the grammar in the next town with many of my classmates.

[lifesalongsong]

With all the material available nowadays and you tube channels devoted to how to pass specific exams a bright student should definitely be able to get a good set of GCSEs and probably keep below the radar whilst at school.

[sendsummer]

Basically a bright DC will do well despite the wrong school if they have parents who are motivated enough and have the time (I'd not both working full time) and skills to teach the syllabus like NonCitrus.
Even in those circumstance you risk a DC becoming disengaged and poorly behaved at school or unhappy At best a DC looses out on academic stimulation within school hours.

[sendsummer]

loses

[surreygoldfish]

I don't agree that a bright child will do well anywhere. Two DS both at a highly selective independent. Eldest DS generally now is working at an expected level for that school - underperformed with flashes of great performance occasionally most of the way through to age 12. Improved self motivation - but just needs to be with similar peers and taught by very able teachers otherwise would under achieve. I'm not saying that's a good thing - it's just how it is. We don't push - he's got to find some drive himself. DS2 would have done well anywhere. So I think it's a combination of academic ability, school and parental support AND personality of that child.

[lljkk]

What I believe is more like "the factors that make a child succeed are more independent from than dependent on quality of school" which is why very high achievers can come out of bad neighbourhoods, bad schools, sometimes even out of bad families.

I don't think the reason is usually parents intensely involved in covering bits of missing syllabus... more like native intelligence & resilliance making most of whatever opportunities are on offer.

Something like "full potential" depends mostly on emotional happiness & resiliance, which is supercomplex to predict or make happen.

[Lurkedforever1]

I agree, the phrase is bull.

I was bright, and very Middleclass . I went to a dire comprehensive/ junior borstal with bigger fish to fry than gcse results, then a mediocre sixth form. I wasn't just unsupported by my parents, I had a nightmare homelife. I put zero effort into school after y7/ early y8 and was a known troublemaker. I had a fab time socially, popular, loads of friends etc and got top grades both gcse and 5 a-levels.

It wasn't successful though. I lost all interest in education and learning. Never learnt what (mental) hard work and effort were, or that it was ever required in life. Learnt to use my intelligence to disrupt lessons, enjoy myself, and early on to foster the rep that 'posh and clever' didn't mean it was a good idea to mess with me. I learnt going to do a physical job was far more satisfying than the endless boredom of education. I learnt that nobody in my school was on my mental wavelength academically, or had any respect for the fact I did actually already understand whatever inane ramblings they thought I should pay attention to. So I learnt to have no respect for them. I learnt that same as my parents, they were eager to cash in on my positives, without ever even acknowledging them. I learnt that being the ring leader of trouble and having a bad rep gained me attention and admiration from peers. I learnt to use my intelligence to get my own way. I had the idea reinforced that my needs weren't important. I learnt to separate 'interesting' from 'education'.

'Bright kids do well whatever' is absolute rot.

[CanvasAwning]

Also to factor in is what they do after reaching/not reaching their full potential at school. I have friends from grammar with excellent exam results who went on to mediocre small town jobs and friends from secondary modern with a handful of CSEs between them who have achieved very highly.

[Godstopper]

My G.C.S.E's are, in the present day, rather average.

For my school, I was 2nd or 3rd in the year.

No parental involvement (I was removed by social services into foster care during GCSE time for reasons I don't want to detail); and undiagnosed deafness (so missing a lot of what was said).

I received university offers from everywhere I applied (think, top 5 - one teacher encouraged me to). I did much better at university, and have just finished my PhD (now looking for a post-doc).

I do think that context is everything, and some people took a chance on me. I'm not sure that would happen now. I don't think of myself as unusually intelligent, but I am diligent, and managed to study my way out of a pretty bad situation.

[AgonyBeetle]

My oldest three are now post-GCSE, so I've seen a lot of kids go through secondary school, first and second-hand.

We live in an area with a large variety of different secondary options, and children from my dc's primary school went, variously, to good comps, reasonable-ish comps, super-selective state, highly-selective private, semi-selective state and not-terribly-selective private, according to the priorities and preferences of the parents. None of them went to avoid-at-all-costs sink schools, although a couple of the reasonable comps have had a rocky few years at various points, with lots of disruption and teacher turnover.

What I have observed is that all the children that I know, and know of, have come out with the GCSE grades that you would have predicted for them at age 9, based on the child's ability and personality, regardless of the school type they went to.

The dc who you would have predicted at primary would ace it and get 11A* did so, whether they went to a roughish comp or a superselective grammar school. Kids who were endlessly tutored to scrape into selective schools came out with very similar results as their primary friends of similar ability whose parents chose the comps for them.

I don't think this necessarily means that it doesn't matter what school you choose for your child (though I think the really anarchic comps of the 1980s don't exist in the same way in the era of Ofsted and academisation). But I think it probably does mean that as long as the child is happy in their environment and supported at home, the actual type of school they attend probably doesn't matter that much.

I find this quite cheering, personally.

[getoffthattabletnow]

I really don't agree with Agonybeetle at all.Yes ,really clever kids with motivated parents do well in average schools.Especially children who's parents are teachers for some reason.The middle of the road bright kids are capable of far more in a really good school .I know because my eldest is one of them.I transferred her in year 9 to a selective school.She was shocked to find how hard she was expected to work..Her bright friends have done nowhere near as well as her in the state system.She has obtained top grades which she will need to pursue a medical career.She does say however the pupils from ex-state schools are the ones who are most driven .Long term they seem to do better than the rather more cossetted Prep school pupils.

[UnDeuxTroisCatsSank]

Total crap spouted on MN. Never heard it anywhere in the real world else.

What about bright but lazy?
Bright but bullied?
Bright but gets in with the wrong crowd?
Bright but becomes a bully?
Bright but with mental health issues?
Bright but with family issues?

Never understood it.

[WhoTheFuckIsSimon]

Dd passed her eleven plus but goes to one of the crappest comps ever and is floundering. No way will she do as well as she would have done at a better school.

[Woodhill]

I don't agree bright kids do well anywhere. My parents put me into private school when I was in primary. It was at the time when secondary moderns were becoming comprehensive. I don't think I would have done so well there. Middle of the road kid but needed pushing

[UnDeuxTroisCatsSank]

And in average or poor schools, kids learn to coast, not to push themselves, bad habits and often never learn how to learn.

[MargaretCabbage]

I was a very bright child from a working class family, none of who had done well at school.

I went to an average secondary school that rapidly went down hill and was closed down shortly after I left. We had numerous supply teachers in most GCSE subjects (and one where we didn't even have one as the teacher disappeared and they forgot to send a replacement for a whole half term). Behaviour was awful, fires in classrooms, chairs out of windows, ceiling tiles being ripped out and thrown around. There weren't enough of us at higher level maths, so we studied the basic stuff in lessons and had to attend in our own time with one of the few dedicated teachers to learn the more complicated things... Until someone burnt his house down and he was off for a long time. The well respected science teacher started teaching us really weird, untrue facts and we questioned it but were ignored - until he was diagnosed with a severe illness that had affected his brain and had to quit. It sounds unbelievable but that's not even the beginning. It made it hard to learn much during lessons.

I managed to get all A-C grades but I probably could have done much better than that in a good school, particularly in maths and science which were the subjects I found most difficult; I did become quite lazy because I wasn't really learning much in school and lost interest. Two pupils in my year managed to achieve all A grades, one was exceptionally brilliant and one had really good support at home. The GCSE pass rate when I left was 21%.

[sunnydayinmay]

My late Dad was a teacher, and he believed that a school needed a third of children to be motivated to make it work. Didn't really matter about overall results.

If you are a bright child, but without peer support, then you will struggle, either academically or emotionally. If you have a group of like minded peers, then you will find it okay.

[findasolution]

Some really interesting views and experiences, of parents' and children's experiences. Thank you.

The tiger mum aspect is topical neuro, given the PM's recent comments. Do you by this, mean full hog Amy Chua school of no extra curricular, no parties or sleepovers, sports etc? Or just an invested parent that keeps on top of the day to day homework and progress. This itself can be a balancing act for some - not to helicopter beyond instilling good structural disciplines, keeping on top of revision and so forth as secondary steadily becomes a more self reliant 5/7 years of teacher/pupil relationship. How else would they cope with too much intervention or additional tuition that gets removed at HE level? I know many parents at junior level that did their kids' homework for them so not to fall below in a teacher's eyes at school!

I agree that some parents are very well placed to support academically, but not all of us are (I wouldn't touch maths for 12 year olds with a barge pole, but can support on music and sports), nor all have children that take well to parental assistance...

Many view that the middling ability children are the ones at most risk - those super bright will either do very well often 'in spite' of their school digging deep into their inner drive. And I think this is true, but it is still a risk that one needs to weigh up against the alternatives. However, there is little argument that this builds a great strength of character and success itself, vs some of their counterparts in more desirable schools.

There will surely always projection of some kind from our own upbringing. Even if it often makes us do the opposite. However, we all are able to also gauge the personality of our children in today's era to see what resilience they have. I also believe that much lies on the cohort we/our children mix with, not just the quality of the school.

I ask the questions that I do because it is evident that intervention of some kind is needed to supplement a school's shortfalls, for those that have less than desirable options, and that are not always academic, hence the necessity for supporting lessons for extra curricular activities where school offering is poor. These are not important for everyone Amy Chua, but for me, a crucial outlet for the pressure of academic learning and wider friendship groups.

I guess in summary, I want my daughter to have drive, resilience and a will to do the best she can, and with that there needs to an element of perseverance (my 1960s immigrant background is great for drumming this in!), but do I want her pushing water up hill all the way? Not if I can help her not to, as there are many more challenges a young person needs to deal with vs my day.

[Theendispie]

I was in the bright but incredibly lazy camp, I did well at my bog standard school and did sweet FA.

Did quite well career wise and was the only person in my department without a degree and most had post graduate qualifications. I was the go to woman when people needed help working stuff out as my mind works at speed.

I just really loathe formal education and become very restless if being talked at. I'm older and you wouldn't even get your foot in the door without a degree in my old job these days.

When we were sent for training I would sit thinking about other stuff while the x hour presentation was given. I would then just read the hand out and do it. I always thought the training dept was an area where sweeping cuts were needed as found some of the stuff they peddled ridiculous.

As an adult I actually think I have some kind of SEN but I'm not sure what, very probably ASD. Taught myself to read before I went to school.

[oldmum22]

We are in an area which has only one large secondary school (about 1800 mixed sex ) and a faith school which is strict on the entry criteria. We chose to send our 2 ds's to a nearby town, where there is a boys school. The encouragement, the pastoral care and of course the teaching are way ahead (IMO) of similar available at the local mixed comp. A good, happy, well disciplined school does lead to better results and a more rounded child. To summarise, I disagree that bright kids can do well in any school .

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

I disagree with this too. I was top of the year at 'O' level (old) in my not brilliant bog standard Comp then went to a leafy naice school for 6th form. There were quite a few people from the naice school with better 'O' level results than me in the 6th form who couldn't match my 'A' level performance. It was clear that the naice school had enabled the pupils to reach their potential or close to it and the bog standard comp hadn't.

Bright, well supported children will be less disadvantaged by a poor school than those with less academic potential, SEN, social disadvantages or unsupportive backgrounds but the reality is that the school will probably let them all down to some extent.

Ultimately, it worked out alright for me but I am sure there were others who have never really recovered from a poor start.

[EricNorthmanSucks]

It's rubbish.

Lots of 'bright' pupils don't do particularly well.

[howabout]

I agree with the proposition that "bright kids do well anywhere" because I am one of those and so far DD1 and DD2 are going the same way. Setting and self-selection of more academic options for GCSE on is a factor.

I think at lower levels not so bright DC can be pushed to exceed normal 11+ score or normal GCSE results, but in the long run this may lead them down a sub-optimal academic path when it comes to A levels and even more so degrees and careers. I think lack of aspiration and being shown options are more of an issue for bright DC than lack of educational resource.

I also agree academics are not enough but it is also about attitude and application and ability to work with other people - especially people who are different from you.

I am a parent with the time and resources to supplement the school but I deliberately don't do it as it is very easy to undermine self-confidence and confidence in the school and the teachers. I do support the school by making sure homework is done etc.

[Muskey]

Place marking so I can read this later