Can anyone 'rank' the SW London selective schools

[FlumePlume]

Inspired by the SW London thread, I was wondering if there's a generally agreed 'ranking' for selective schools in SW London? The usual advice is to go for three - a stretch, a should-get and a banker. But what does this actually mean in terms of schools? Coming from a state primary, the whole thing is very opaque.

Tourbillon - the delights of mumnet...

Agree of that summary of local schools - bar this year was way higher even for KGS which in previous years might have been considered a safe back up - just on hearsay from friends even very bright kids from
local state schools have struggled - all very worrying developments. Whitgift is always a 'safe' one to try but one friend told me that about 150 boys applied for sports scholarships there - always popular and it's getting harder to get them.
As are bursaries btw.

From our local big 'oustanding' state I know of only 2 boys who passed local Grammars. Even in my DS prep numbers passing for Grammars has halved.

"Informal rumblings based on how boys I know fared at the recent 11+/13+ exams are that RGS Guildford is becoming super super selective. Hampton is not far behind. "

Becoming? They have always been selective, but nowhere is as selective as the super-selective grammars, just because those are free and the private schools cost £15-£20k/year

"St Johns take a broader look at candidates and offer accordingly."

The (old?) head told me that they cater for the nice-but-dim. There's not really a thing of 'broader look'. The private schools with best results get many applicants per place and can discard all but the brightest. The other schools don't have that luxury and will take a less able student simply because they would have empty classrooms if they insisted on 120+ CAT scores. Quite a few private schools are effectively non-selective.

For % with A at A level you also have to look at entry. For instance KGS requires an A* in gcse maths to study it at Alevel .LEH only requires an A. Most state sixth forms require a B so the cohorts are different

So your personal experience is from 40 years ago?

Some of it is from the past, and some of it is from the present as I have two children.

My personal experience of SPGS is from 30 years ago so it must be even more relevant. I turned down a place there because the girls at open day were so nasty to the others and it was full of anorexics. A friend who went there hated it.

So your opinion is based on no experience of it whatsoever. Rather, negative stereotyping based on fear and assumption.

The rate of anorexia at St Paul's is no higher than other girls' schools, and girls' boarding schools generally generate some of the highest rates of EDs.

I know a lot of current pupils and some recent leavers & they have all been very happy with it. But it's not a school for everyone & that's fine.

But are your children at WHS/PHS? Obviously not and therefore it's just second hand gossip on your part.
You don't seem to understand sarcasm either - I was pointing out that my 30 year old experience was no longer relevant. I spent several days at SPGS, visiting, exams, interviews, looking around post offer, and concluded it wasn't for me. 30 years later I can see it wouldn't be the type of place I'd like to be a parent at either.

Just scrolling through thread again - noticed the rank order that other posters have put local boys schools in - if you have a bright DC it's always worth trying for one lower down the list for chances of getting a good scholarship - quite a common ploy at our prep - I know of one who sailed through Wilsons paper (which was tough) and them sat Whitgift - these things can work in your favour

Funnily enough, I can grasp clunky sarcasm. I wasn't commenting on the historical relevance of your view, merely the claim that it was based on 'personal experience' when you have none. You only ever made external visits.

You don't know where my children are or have been at school.

You asked for my opinion, I gave it, if you don't like it, that's fine.

I don't think that the greater number applying for sports scholarships at Whitgift above has much meaning. It's just more parents trying it on with an over-inflated opinion of their child's sporting ability. I've seen this first hand and heard it from DS coaches - some of the boys put forward for cricket for example will end up not even making the schools B team let alone being offered a scholarship!!

So you are saying SPGS is the best school ever even though you don't have kids there? I assume you went there in the 70s and that's why you say you are biased. And then you say that PHS/WHS are dismal based on your experience 40 years ago and some second hand tittle tattle.
Wow, what an informed poster you are, we should all take your word for it shouldn't we? Whereas I actually have dc at the schools you are slagging off and many years of recent experience. Mumsnetters, decide who you believe.

rosehippy - I meant that RGS and Hampton appear to have stepped up a gear or two in terms of competition to get in. Really bright boys who previously might have stood a reasonable chance of getting an offer have been unsucessful. People are travelling from further afield to go there, so increasing the pool of applicants.

St Johns - well, not everyone got an offer letter who sat, and their exam results are pretty strong (80% of A Levels A-B, 50% A/A).... Not a hot house, but a bit unfair as the "nice but dim" destination, surely?

My anecdotal evidence re St Johns would just be from a few people whose DS are going there 13+ and it was the only one locally they could get in to and were previously expecting to send their DS further afield boarding somewhere.

I said I was at PHS junior school in the 70s, I went to St Paul's in the 80s. I made no comment about where my children are at school - but I have said clearly that my view was based on experiences both past and present.

If you're happy with your children's schools, what on earth are you getting so worked up about? This thread isn't about you.

Let me get this straight. You are posting your opinions of 40 years ago about one particular school and your second hand gossip about another on a thread asking for information about these schools and when I, a current parent, disagree, you tell me I shouldn't be posting? I've heard it all now.

Where did I say you you shouldn't be posting?

Where did I say I wasn't a current parent?

"This thread isn't about you" is clearly telling me to no longer say my piece

And why be so coy, surely if you are a parent at the least dismal school in London you should be open about it? (PS it was already clear to me and several other posters that you were a current parent)

I think there's a tendency for current parents to take comments about their dcs schools very personally. Odd because I can definitely see faults in my kids' schools. It's not an insult I f your children - let's be honest - we're all really lucky to be sending our kids to any of these amazing schools - and we're really quibbling over details ☺️

Isn't it a fact, that by nature of their fees, the number applying for independent schools (even the more selective, higher achieving ones) will be limited compared to those applying for state grammars?

Parents like to think that whichever independent their child has gone to, because they have sat an exam, it must be selective and their child has passed, is clever and has beaten a load of others to get the place. However, in the end, all of the kids find a place at a school and those who want to pay will all find a place in a fee paying school, probably having sat an exam. Bearing in mind that statistically many of the children want ifn places at independent schools won't be super bright or even slightly bright, it must mean that many schools, whatever they say are not actually highly selective at all.

Although some of the schools we are talking about have large numbers sitting the exams, often they are sitting many exams and they can only take up one school place....so this skews it all and makes the schools seem more competitive than they really are. Even at the very top ones, kids have often sat another really top school exam too and will get offered both....and they can only take one. Many schools will need to offer twice as many places (or more) as they actually have, in order to fill up. They hope that those who scored higher in the exam will be the ones who say 'yes' and for the more highly regarded, they will attract more of the top performers, but those that aren't quite top notch and might be the back up for many, they may find that most of the top performers go elsewhere .....so the huge number who sat the exam (many with it as 2nd, 3rd or fourth choice) is misleading about its true popularity and selectiveness. That's where the generous bursaries come in - a marketing tool to attract the better candidates to choose this school rather than another.

It's a different game for the state grammars in areas with no catchment. When people sit consortium exams or exams for an individual school, far more would say 'yes' if offered a place, because it is free. In my mind, this is what makes those state grammars like Tiffin truly super selective, whereas the schools like RGS Guildford won't be as super selective....the fact fees will need to be paid will always limit the numbers applying.

Parents love to say their child has passed the exam for X and especially to say they have been offered an award to X, but also had an offer to Y and Z with scholarships too....what a tricky choice to make, tinkly laugh. Many Schools know that 500 sat the exam but they will need to offer 300 places to fill 100 and of those 100 who say yes, perhaps they will get 30 from the top 100 who sat the exam....not quite so selective after all.

Wouldn't it be interesting to see how many sat each place, how many were offered, how many sat different numbers of exams and for each school, how many of the top performers in their exam actually took up a place and how many much lower performers ended up with a place there. I guess the school so old that like us to know that!

Sorry, this dropped off my threads in on list and I've only just found it again.

So, for a Wimbledon based girl, it seems like trying for WHS is a no brainer. But then I've got a long list to work through of other options, I'm thinking KGS, PHS, Tiffin as the easiest to get to. Then maybe Emanuel as a co-ed option. SPGS if we get an indication from the tutor that she's at that level, but I'm not sure the journey north of the river would be worth it.

But all those are hard to get in to, so maybe Sutton or Surbiton High as a slightly easier option.

I think some of what you're saying js true - however I know of boys who passed Tiffin and yet failed KCS - the exams are very different. Grammars like Tiffin and Wilsons set a very high bar for Maths as they've got too many boys good at Maths sitting them - these boys are often mediocre at English.
This is the main reason we decided to sit privates as well (only two) as we felt that DS' strength is actually in English and not Maths.
Sorry I'm rambling - the Grammars in Sutton and Kingston set a very specific type of exam - to say those kids are brighter is not accurate for the above reasons.

I agree Wimbles - I know plenty of families not even looking at Tiffin or grammars for various reasons.
At my DD's apparently dismal 😂 school (which has been fabulous at primary level) nearly all the girls are staying on.
I think for SPGS to be worth the journey, you have to have the sort of personality to thrive in that environment (putting the appalling attitudes upthread aside for now). If it would be worth the journey I suspect you would already know for yourself by having a super strong performer already and going to look round.

It's always difficult to compare schools with different levels of selectivity at the start.

For what it's worth, Manon's views are by no means uncommon in West London. DD found it a bit tedious when her peers felt the need to remind her that they were more academic. Especially if she was helping them with their maths homework at the time.

In the end all that matters is they get the next step. And that they enjoyed school, built good study habits, are grounded with a realisation that education gives them responsibilities not entitlement, and that they have found interests and friends that will sustain them well beyond school. Neither of mine ended up at Oxbridge but both are more than happy in terms of places on the courses they wanted. The girls DD knew at SPGS had a bit of a mix of outcomes with at least a couple of girls, who were superbright at 11 fading at 18. We also knew a few who were obviously unhappy and who did not last the course. Others though did very well, and the school suited them. However her peers at Latymer Upper also did extraordinarily well, especially when comparing what I would see as like for like. Having met quite a few adults who went to SPGS (and for some reason you always seem to be told) it is not an advantage to think you are brighter than others.

SPGS has a comparative advantage if you are aiming for US Universities. And it is the school that seems to most clearly mirror academic counterparts in North America. But otherwise don't fret. Find the school that suits your daughter best, including journey.

Both DC went through Westminster sixth form, which takes girls from a range of schools, state and private. One or two SPGS girls were clearly a bit special, but so were some from other schools. As for the rest, there was no obvious evidence that the SPGS girls were brighter or better taught.

Needmore Thanks! You've reminded me that I need to look at the journey for Latymer Upper.

And, as a Paulina myself (but 30 years ago, I'm sure it's a very different place now) I would say that the ones that tell you they are Paulinas are the only ones you would know about. It's something I don't mention, unless I'm asked a direct question, as I don't like the reaction. And, frankly, because it's irrelevant and a very long time ago.

On the other hand, dd1 is very like me, and if it was still the same as when I attended, I think she'd thrive there. In the early 90s it had an ethos of quirky individualism and valuing difference that I loved, and found incredibly supportive and stimulating.

Thanks @needmoresleep - great post and always helpful to hear balanced opinions from someone who has been through it already.

That's interesting @FlumePlume! I didn't even know about St Paul's until I was in my 20s and worked in the City. They just never shouted about it. I since discovered there were a number of Paulinas/OPs at my college but I never knew. Whereas everyone knew who went to Eton!
LEH and SPGS have very good buses and G&L/LU (I think) don't. And the change on the tube is a pain. But that isn't a consideration for every family I know.