Please can we have a non-fighty thread about the advantages/disadvantages of independent schools....

[insertfeistynicknamehere]

I attended one myself but it was a long time ago.

Been looking round and keep seeing references to "dodgy independents"
what are these?

Where we live there are excellent state schools but I have no experience of this at secondary, it seems quite scary - DC attend a state village one-form entry school

My oldest is only 8 so it's a fair way off yet but still...
Promise am not a goady fucker btw.

SuzieTwo8s posts above ring true for me.
I went to Alleyn's School (London, independent, selective) on an academic scholarship at 11. I found it pushy, competitive, quite dog eat dog. Bullying was normal, racism was rife. Children of politicians worst for both IME. Children of actors definitely the coolest (but strict hierarchy of film/TV/theatre/adverts). My house mistress constantly reminded me that I 'was lucky to be there' as my parents couldn't have afforded the fees.
Admittedly it had good facilities, big sports fields, a swimming pool. A Cadet force and Duke of Edinburgh's Award. And I did OK academically, although I couldn't put my hand on my heart and say it was because of that particular school.
I didn't consider that environment for my DC. They go to the local (outside of London) state school, which is quite good (top 25%) and are doing very well there. For sure the facilities are scruffier but the quality of education is excellent.

I have only really skimmed the thread, but get a feeling that a majority of people are choosing the opposite of what they had for their own education.

Ok, slightly off topic, but I see cultural capital has been mentioned. I don't know what this is as I've only seen it mentioned on Mumsnet and I've never read about it elsewhere or heard it talked about in real life.
Does it have anything to do with classical music?
I ask because I think I've heard classical music mentioned in a comment about cc on this forum. We enjoy going to concerts and recitals but it's not easy to find one near where we live which takes place on an evening when the family are all together.
However, several years after everyone else we've discovered Chromecast. Thanks to this we had a very enjoyable evening over Christmas and watched Lang Lang play Mendelssohn's Piano Concerto no.1. We had supper in the 'interval' then watched Vengerov play Mendelssohn's Violin Concerto.

Obviously it's not the same as actually having an outing to a concert hall and soaking up the atmosphere of a live performance, but it was enjoyable and totally and legally free.

www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Cultural_capital.aspx

oh YES grumpy i'd forgotten about the hierarchy of actors. i think it was film/theatre/tv and then a whole load of other people before the adverts, for us.

also politicians. nobody gave a shit unless daddy (yes, almost all daddy) was in the cabinet.

and yes, totally, re racism but it wasnt as bad as the classism/moneyism which was horrendous.

yes i am choosing the opposite to the education i had, but my siblings (st pauls, latymer etc) have privately educated their children.

the only thing i can say in favour of private education is (a) it teaches you to speak properly; and (b) gives you an ability to 'step up' and be posh if helpful. both of which i can teach my kids at home (although beating the extended vowels of the estuary out of my kids is a hard battle)

i sometimes hear people say a private education gives the child an ability to fit in anywhere and thats just not true among my school peers.

I find this fascinating. We're in the middle of choosing state v or age primary. I went to an all girls
Selective independent and I don't recognise a single one of the cons of private education. There were no politicians or actors dads at our schools - lots of farmers, doctors, business owners. It was cool to be clever, everyone aimed high and most of my school year are in pretty good jobs. Friends from the local state school are not in such good jobs. Our list of pros and cons so far:

Pros
Smaller classes
Better facilities
Higher aspirations
Wider social circle (I think more ethnically divers but I can't be sure)
Much better exam grades
Includes the classics
A lot more sport
A lot better wrap around care

Negatives
I do think that socially a comprehensive system for all would be fairer. But it's not that and I want the best for my child and therefore will learn to live with the guilt and try to mitigate in other ways.

Cost isn't an issue for us so won't come in to into the decision.

Having said that we have worked out what the kids would have in 14 years if we invested the money we are going to spend on their education. We still think it's worth it. My grandfather who left school at 14 to work on the railways always told his family that a great education is the one thing no one can take away from you. Investments can fall, not do so well and they certainly wouldn't teach dc's the value of hard work.

anything you can do which will equip your children with the skills to manage their lives and earn income, independently of you must be a good thing. If you feel a private education will give those skills then that must be a good way of spending money. and, i believe, better than simply handing them cash money or a portfolio, on their 25th birthday.

I'm by no means an expert in this area, but I think that people perhaps have an unrealistic idea of how much middle class parents can influence and improve state schools. They may boost the overall school performance, but it would not necessarily directly benefit any disadvantaged children at the school.

Some research from a few years ago indicated that

the middle class children did equally well in their local comp as they would had they gone to a better school.

The school did well in terms of their results, but it tended to be because they concentrated on the brighter mc children, who they knew were most likely to succeed.

Link here

As I said up thread, it really does depend on which schools you have on offer. Private does not always equal much better exam grades, or higher aspirations (or most of the things on that list). As I said up thread, in our area with selective state grammar schools which are in the top 2 10 most years for GCSE and A level results, the local private schools are a mixture of children who did not pass the 11+ and those whose parents would have sent to private school irrespective of ability.

What a good private school can do because they have loads of time and loads of money is to provide good stuff- cultural experiences, sport, music that if you put value on you have to provide yourself if your children are at state school.

Generally, the sort of children who do well in private schools will do well anywhere, because they tend to have the sort of parents who can help them. (Please note my qualifiers, before you disagree!). Ironically, the sort of children who would benefit most from private schools, because they won't get the "stuff" anywhere else are the ones who don't have a snowball's chance in hell of going to one.

I suspect that my DC would have been fine in state school.

But I could not have replicated the education they have received by tutoring and outside clubs (which is often advised as a substitute on MN).

Just not doable.

I mean, I'm motivated, I'm well off, I'm well educated, but I aint a fecking magician .

No need for tutoring.

And you do have to be a bit selective. And obviously you can't reproduce what's available at the top few private schools- I can't get the Archbishop of Canterbury or the Poet Laureate to come to tea, for example. But I reckon my kids get everything they would get in a mid to top mid range private. They also get the benefit of state education too. It's hard work though!

Yes, I think how much the middle classes can influence state schools for the benefit of the working classes is severely over-estimated. They are, however, very good at sticking together in herds in places that already reflect their opinions.

Our local state school offers outstanding music facilities, lots of sport and creative extra- curricular options too, great debating club where pupils compete nationally, very good academic results. It also has a nice community feel, most of the kids walk to school, so can meet up easily with friends. It takes a lot of kids from outside the catchment area too, so it is not difficult to get a place.

The private schools in my large city don't offer anything not available at the comprehensive. Results are on paper better but they exclude kids with additional needs, interview parents as part of the application process etc so that is to be expected. Both our comprehensive and the private schools turn out loads of very well qualified kids with lots of outside interests.

The comp kids IMO have the advantage of having mixed with people from a wider range of backgrounds and grown up as part of a community. They haven't had to spend hours travelling to school. My dh took six buses a day to get to a well- known London private school, (where he was also bullied). Really would not want that for my children.

I was grammar school educated and have experienced about 5 state comprehensives and one independent school as a teacher. I don't doubt that there are bad independent schools, but none of the state schools at which I have worked (two were rated outstanding) could get close to comparing with what the private girls' day school offered. Just not remotely in the same league on any level. Teaching there was like an entirely different job.

Obviously the facilities were vastly superior, as were the extra-curricular opportunities. But the main difference was the pupils themselves - their expectations of life, their attitude to their education, their level of effort, their manners and general behaviour, plus the level of support from their families. I know that it's a very unpopular view, but that is my experience. I'd love to send my dc to independent school, but sadly I can't afford to. Oh and the pupils were largely pretty local, so didn't have a very long journey.

Personally, I rather liked going to a school where I got to see different attitudes to work and different levels of support from home - it made me appreciate how lucky I was and also keep things in perspective, as I was a bit of a perfectionist. I think an environment with lots of diligent young girls like me in it would have been quite toxic and encouraged my neurotic tendencies!

"Very good at sticking together in herds at places that reflect their opinions"
Absolutely, most of the parents at DS2's school choose it because of its ethos, so it's very likely that if you herd us all together we will all have similar opinions about the sort of education we want for our children.

"Nice community feel" "grown up as part of the community"
I never understand this community thing, or the thought often expressed on here (not this thread) that only state educated children can be part of their communities, life is not just about school, many schools both state and independent have a nice community feel, DS2's school (full boarding) has a very strong community feel.
With regard to walking to school it's easy to forget that this is a luxury that many in rural communities don't have even if they attend a state school.

When people describe a community feel, I think they mean the school feels like an important part of the community in which they also have their home (eg its staff will take part in important local events, or run community events, most local children attend the school, locals who do not have children at the school still feel they know it well and have attended events there, local children walk to school together, etc.). To be fair, I think some people do have that and this makes them feel more attached to the school as a result. Otherwise, you have a school community and a home community and possibly multiple other "communities" in and out of which you slip (eg church, scouts, choir, work, etc...) and that feels different.

If, instead of indulging in the farcical argument over whether one sector is better than the other, you focus on what is actually available to you in your area and what makes you feel good about each school, your sense of a school being part of your community and therefore being familiar and understandable is a valid enough reason for you to feel a particular warmth towards it.

I have a genuine question please what is middleclass and whats the difference between middleclass and workingclass. If I am working and earn ok, could afford a house, few holidays, sending my kids to private then what I am? (Royal blood line is First class I guess?)

suzietwo I was in a class with a girl whose parents were both in the Cabinet. She was absolutely horrible - so entitled and though she was the dogs bollocks. Really mean. But she wasn't better than anyone else, when push came to shove.

Jude Law went to my school. I was in the same year as his sister :)

Ultimately, with regard to private schooling, I think it's simply down to whether the (perceived) ends justify the (financial) means. I can't honestly say if one is better than the other, only that I wouldn't choose it.

I am in the lucky position of being in a area where schools are 11-16 , then 6th form college. Our top college is one of the top ones in the country. But if it was very poor, I would consider private (but realistically can't pay for 3 DC so it's a moot point)

Why would you want school staff to take part in local events or run community events?
When I'm at home I don't want to see the people I work with, my private life is exactly that, as is their private life.
I cross the road to avoid my clients, I don't want to meet their friends etc. and I don't them to meet mine.