A Level classes - is this acceptable?

[ZaZathecat]

DS has just started sixth form and is saying that he hates one of his subjects (which previously interested him). Main reasons are a) there are 30 people in the class, and b) they have 2 teachers alternating. One is OK but the other 'just gives out book work and doesn't actually teach'.

This seems a bit out of order to me as my experience of sixth form was smallish classes with lots of discussion and teacher explaining or talking to the class. Quiet study was homework or for free periods (which seem to have all but disappeared).

What are others experiences of current A level classes - is this normal/acceptable?

Bobo derailed another thread on this board self-promoting her services she provides to French students.
Please ignore her.
As she stated just now she has no experience of the A-levels herself yet tries to tell us she knows it.

I'm answering questions, not derailing a thread.

Please read my reply again. I said you derailed another thread.

I guess OP have looked through Sixth Form before you send your DS to this Sixth form. How well is this year's A level result for this subject?

If you can't move your DS to another school, then you have to encourage him to do his best under the current situation. I guess the class size can't be changed due to funding.

Hi Autumnsky, DS stayed at his school as he preferred not to uproot himself, but the school has consistently high results so I was not concerned. However I don't know if the class size was as big last year - all DS's other subjects have 12-15 in them as I would expect. The fact that the head of sixth form said it was 'unfortunate' indicates to me that she does not think it is a desirable situation (but as you say, there's probably nothing they can do).

So lovely to see the usual suspects wittering among themselves about nothing to do with the thread

ZaZa
It may be worth finding out a bit more about the overall teaching structure
eg DDs college has the huge classes
BUT
every lunchtime there is a "club" for each of the big subjects where students work together with AS and A2 pupils and some tutors, each table "chewing" on a particular issue
so that there is effectively a tutor system running in parallel with the lessons.

If your son's school do not have such, see if the HoD could start it as it will help with their results as well as your individual problem

Thanks Talkin

I have had another reply from the head of sixth form, re-iterating the consistently good results etc. and saying he must ask the Business dept. if he needs more support and they will be willing to help, so I will have to see how this goes. Suspect DS won't want to be asking for individual help. I will have to have a decent discussion with the Business teachers at parents evening.

ZaZa - I teach and examine this subject so despite the thread getting derailed as usual in secondary and by the same posters hopefully we can get it back on track of your concerns.

Whilst 30 is a big class for A Level, it is unfortunate due to budget cuts etc that some classes have resulted in being larger than previously. There are also differing numbers taking a subject every year, and this can also impact on the numbers.

For this subject as well as being aware of the theory behind each aspect there is a large percentage of success dependent on the application and answering question in context (for example, the GCSE Unit 3 paper this year had 22/90 marks available based on the context alone; therefore a student could have answered the paper with perfect theoretical answers, but if they fail to use context and apply to the business in question, then the highest mark they could have gained would have been a D on that paper)

This skill is so vital to success in the exams that practice and technique is given as much priority as the teaching. I run courses like this myself, have one block of teaching the theory and another on exam practice/technique not only to secure the theory taught but also the use of context and application.

please PM if you want further information/help

That is interesting, thanks Cricketballs. I will speak to my DS and see if this is how they are doing it.

Bobo - I agree with you and have a lot of respect for the French system.

OP - the class size isn't ideal but they can't change it unless they buy in another teacher. I don't think the quality of teaching can be commented on before there is any assessment. It's true there are very different styles.

four or two is a hopeless number, I agree, especially in humanities where it is vital that people understand different perspectives/get enthused about particular books or periods of history etc.
Derailing thread again but that statement makes me laugh since an Oxbridge education (not judged hopeless internationally ) is based on the tutorial system with sometimes only one pupil. The tutorial system will not work with a lazy tutor or passive student with a closed mind. The latter will not be helped by open debate of very large classes if they choose not to engage and thus be challenged.

Large classes may be used as a lecture style teaching of content or working through problems with the teacher on hand to help. More learning can be supplemented by small group tutorials (unlikely in schools), tutoring outside school ( not possible for many) or self-motivated student study groups.
Zaza the latter might be an idea for your DS if you can persuade him to to find another a couple of students to work with. They can then direct their queries as a group to the teachers.

At degree level where there is no standard measure of outcomes, one to one tutorials may be appropriate in certain institutions that like it that way.

At A Level where there are standardised marking schemes, moderated exam marking and publication of detailed exam results, it is not a good use of resources.

In state schools with only £4000 per pupil per year, one to one is a luxury they cannot afford.

In my school one chose A levels depending on whether or not one liked the teacher as the groups were so small, rather than whether one liked or was good at the subject.
Not a good route to excellent outcomes IMHO.

Talkin I agree about resource allocation. My point was different ie small numbers are not 'hopeless' to achieve good discursive teaching. A bit of a misleading overstatement.

viewwater - it is a false comparison to draw parallels between Oxbridge style tutorial teaching and A-level teaching and conclude that the lower the teacher:pupil ratio the better. At A-level the amount of independent preparation per class by students is tiny in comparison to Oxbridge tutorials.

Again, the obsession with small class sizes detracts from the really important drivers of learning which are quality of teaching, pupil engagement, speedy and accurate feedback.

So bobo how about answering my earlier question-with the same teacher would you expect a smaller class to do better?

Pupil engagement, speedy and accurate feedback are much easier to achieve in small classes.

drivers of learning which are quality of teaching, pupil engagement, speedy and accurate self evident and does n't pointing out. However to make the statement that large classes are better than small for discursive learning with (as PurpleDaises states) all things being equal is rather ridiculous.

'Doesn't need'

No, I wouldn't expect a smaller class to do better with the same teacher. Peer group interaction is a crucial driver of learning - if you haven't got a large enough peer group, class dynamics suffer and - contrary to what some people seem to think - more lecture-style teaching takes place to fill the gaps.

What do you define as a large enough peer group then?

Purple
From DHs experience off visiting all sorts of schools over many years, the minimum feasible group for any age or subject is 15

the best dynamics happen at about 24
maintaining attention and stopping chatting among selves becomes a problem over 30

Fellow teacher here too-I broadly agree with those numbers. I was interested as to what bobo thinks-she appears to be arguing that larger classes have no impact on leaning at all, which is a little bizarre.

PurpleDaisies - I don't think that class size can increase indefinitely with no impact on learning. Large classes only work where there is quite a significant degree of selectivity and where pupil behaviour and engagement are good. This thread is about class size for 16/17 year olds in an academic setting ie both those criteria should be fulfilled.

What I do believe is that people can get hung up on small class size as a driver of learning. It intuitively sounds like a good idea but isn't nearly such a good idea in practice - or certainly not for every lesson.

Bobo and you base your conclusions on what objective reviewed evidence or teaching experience? Interestingly countries with large classes of 30 plus usually have longer school days as well as a lecturing style of teaching.

I agree that class size alone is not the only determinant of good learning. The trouble is you can't isolate class size from the other factors - teaching quality suffers if you don't know your students as well, assessment and feedback suffers because you cannot physically mark to as high a standard as you'd like to and you can't give the students much individual attention in a very big group (which for A level I'd put at over 20ish). That's why smaller classes are better for students.

We clearly disagree on this. My years of teaching experience tell me one thing and your whatever it is that you do with looking at qualifications tells you something else. The thread wasn't about this.

I have read masses of evidence, from lots of countries and international organisations/think tanks. Over the years. In lots of languages!

It's a pet belief of people who adhere to small class sizes to claim that larger classes = lecture style: at both extremes of class size teachers talk more and pupils less, unless we are talking about adjunct classes (e.g. MFL conversation, science practicals). It is not useful to extrapolate from the learning experience of adjunct classes and claim that all classes should be smaller.