A Level classes - is this acceptable?

[ZaZathecat]

DS has just started sixth form and is saying that he hates one of his subjects (which previously interested him). Main reasons are a) there are 30 people in the class, and b) they have 2 teachers alternating. One is OK but the other 'just gives out book work and doesn't actually teach'.

This seems a bit out of order to me as my experience of sixth form was smallish classes with lots of discussion and teacher explaining or talking to the class. Quiet study was homework or for free periods (which seem to have all but disappeared).

What are others experiences of current A level classes - is this normal/acceptable?

My DC have classes of 12-16 I believe.
DD has one class of 5.
However this particular subject lends itself to small groups and the types to choose it tend to be confident.

Bobo I think your response just highlights the differences between the French and English systems. Our A levels are far better taught in smaller classes as discussion and opinion forming are integral to the syllabuses. Clearly there is such a thing as too small too.

Dd is in classes of around 15 which seems ideal, although she is taking popular subjects at a large college so no issues around tutor availability.

noblegiraffe - tbh I always found my DSSs' teachers remarkably assiduous about marking. Super quick turnaround, very thorough. But that was their school.

In French state Lycées teachers often don't mark homework (though there are lots of in-class written tests etc that are marked). They set homework and then put up a very detailed correction/explanation on line one week later. Pupils can work individually/in groups/with a tutor as they please. I have seen excellent results with this method but of course it is the very antithesis of spoon feeding.

BoboChic but its not really teaching!

At my DDs sixth form they have a limit of 20 in a class, and the classrooms only have a maximum of 20 seats, so it can't go over. Some other local Sixt forms do have classes going up to 22 or 24.
The thing I don't like about some of the private schools is their classes can be too small; one school had 1 pupil doing A'level Textiles, another had 1 doing Greek (for the first she'd have done better transferring to the local Comp which has an excellent Textiles department).

ThenLaterWhenItGotDark - four or two is a hopeless number, I agree, especially in humanities where it is vital that people understand different perspectives/get enthused about particular books or periods of history etc. Large classes can have lots of energy and stimulation. That has to be managed, however, and that takes a skilled teacher and DC who have been educated to behave respectfully in a larger group.

I do think that a large part of the attractiveness of small groups is how much easier they are on the teacher in terms of behaviour management and less marking.

mummytime - perhaps not, but the learning outcomes are pretty impressive!

I do think that a large part of the attractiveness of small groups is how much easier they are on the teacher in terms of behaviour management and less marking.

If it is better for the teacher that often means better for the students. Smaller groups are often easier to manage because you know the kids better-if you know the kids better you can tailor your lessons better so they will do better. Everybody wins.

"Less marking" means more time for planning better lessons or more time marking the work you've taken in to a higher standard. Again, everybody wins.

Your post makes it sound like you think teachers are lazy and trying to look for a way to avoid extra work. For the vast vast majority of teachers that isn't the case. Class size correlates very well with outcome (smaller is better). Why would any teacher want to teach a larger class when they know kids do better in smaller ones?

I do think that a large part of the attractiveness of small groups is how much easier they are on the teacher in terms of behaviour management and less marking.

Wondered how long it would be Bobo before you stated on the inference that teachers want an easier life

Small class size is some kind of religion in England. I question it! There are many other drivers of pupil learning and achievement.

BOBO - will you ever quite understand that the English and French systems of education are different, and therefore your experience of the French system has absolutely no relevance to us English.

what works for French bac (and many of the SE Asian quals as an aside) is rote learning, remembering facts. A Levels include a much larger element of analysis, application of theory and debate than French. Therefore very large classes sizes do NOT facilitate this type of learning.

Bobo - in France I think learning is much more fixed on Chalk and Talk, with students making notes.

In the UK the syllabus is much more about synthesising material and arguing with it. My daughter has just been studying the difference between "stating an opinion" and "arguing a case", and originality is also looked for, not just regurgitation. As part of learning at Sixth form level then there needs to be a lot of debate and discussion. This is easier if the class sizes are not too big, and not too small either.

To be honest French, English, and other "qualifying for University" qualifications are based on very different ideas about learning and what is required or desirable. Which is why it can be a bit of a shock when you change countries for University.

I notice how you have failed to engage with the substance of my post explaining why smaller classes are better for both teachers and students.

Would you like to provide a counter argument as to why you believe with the same teacher pupils learn better in larger classes?

"Which is why it can be a bit of a shock when you change countries for University."

My DSSs have had no "shock" at all when moving from French schooling to English university. On the contrary: DSS1 felt he was rather better prepared for independent learning and analysis than the British. French education is not all about rote learning - it is far from perfect (ditto A-levels) but what it really does do is prepare students to work independently.

As I say I think large classes are perfectly adequate for passing on knowledge. Small groups have little advantage here.

This is why lectures at university tend to be large.

An expert passing on what they know, with minimal interaction with the audience, is a fine thing.

However, for a proper rounded education this needs to be balanced against routine peer lead sessions, where the expert acts as facilitator. These groups need to be smaller. If the discussion stalls or becomes repetitive it just means that the facilitator is not good enough.

"If the discussion stalls or becomes repetitive it just means that the facilitator is not good enough."

Oh come on ;). Poor facilitators are legion but so are ignorant 16/17 year olds!

I don't think there's much to be done about class size, kicking up a fuss won't do anything, u could move him to a collage with smaller classes if u like but it is what it is.
Of course the option would be for the school to limit the numbers but then we'd be reading about how someone's (maybe urs) child Couldnt do the subject they needed to do for uni.
A level is very a different learning structure, so if half the time there's disscussion with one teacher, the other is reflective learning with the other - Id say that was pretty standard
It took me a while to get used to the independent side many years ago too, but I'm sure ur son will get to grips with the structure soon

Bobo I'm remarkably assiduous about marking, with a very quick turnaround. But it took me 2.5 hours to mark 18 A-level maths homeworks properly the other night. 37 scripts would take 5 hours which would mean 2 evenings work which would be impossible because every evening (apart from Friday and Saturday because I'm a slacker) is allocated a class for marking.

But if marking lower down the school wasn't done because I was simply sticking the answers on the board and not giving personalised feedback, then I could probably handle 37 scripts.

I wouldn't know my class very well though. In a smaller class you get to know them and their strengths and weaknesses much better.

Of course young people don't know much yet .

But a good teacher should not simply tell them more stuff. They should insist they stop, think, and then reformulate their argument based on what they do know to date. Then verbalise it.

That takes time.

And of course such sessions run alongside the knowledge- passing lessons, or often mix the two.

The balance creates, when done well, a very rounded education (one reason our universities are so popular with students from other countries).

noble - I'm sure you're assiduous. I'm just saying that we never had an issue with speed or quality of marking for the DSSs, even in very large classes. Don't ask me how the teachers do it. In maths, their most important subject in their Bac S, they were exceptionally well taught and DSS1 has always been very clear that he thought he was at least as well as prepared as any of the students who had done A-level or IB maths/fm. I do not doubt that the same will prove true of DSS2 who had the same teachers. He is at a different university (just started) so we will wait a bit to see what he says.

I think British universities are great. I'm not keen on A-levels, however!

But d you have any recent experience of A levels (you must have done yours 30 years ago, no?).

Complain to HOD that quality of teaching is unacceptable.

I didn't do A-levels myself, SheGot. However, I did an analysis of several different European high school leaving exams a few years ago, and raked through the content of A-levels/IB/French bac/EB curriculum and examinations for a few subjects. It was very eye-opening! It was a follow up to another study that had been done on whether the EB was fit for purpose, comparing it to A-levels/IB/French bac/Abitur/Swedish end of school diploma, so there was a timeline to it.

So no experience at all then?

You compared content.

Content plus interviews with pupils/teachers/heads/universities.

Big takeaway is that so-called academic A-levels are very misleading versus other systems - some are intellectually rigorous and demanding by international comparison and others are of an embarrassingly low standard. IB is much better on this score.