Seriously though, why ARE some state secondary schools allowed to select a proportion of their intake? And I'm not talking about religion here.

[Mintyy]

And why don't they all operate on the same admissions systems?

When you believe in and indeed embrace the state system (rather than private) it is quite a shock to discover that there is no single system, it isn't straightforward, and you will be exposed to a whole weird world of cheating/jostling/playing the system amongst your primary school parent chums to get their dc into the school with the best results. Even if the results simply reflect the fact that there is a selected element within the intake!

It sucks, doesn't it?

I agree that funding of shire counties is a real problem . The emphasis on pupil premium is harming the finances of the grammar schools ! Parents are having to dig into their deep pockets!!! When I worked in Education I never saw poor accommodation that some of the secondary schools had to endure. At least academy status has helped that situation.

I do think all children should have access to coaching or mentoring if their parents want it. Why should it just be well off parents who can access these services? I would quite like PP money to be spent on this in primary schools for appropriate children. Not much hope I expect.

MTHB - think you are in a similar area to me. I spent an hour trying to explain the system to someone who has just moved here from abroad with a year 5 child. By the time you have explained the part selective swherts, bucks grammar, north london etc, your mind explodes. It makes absolutely no sense (and I speak as someone who actually did well out of the whole thing).

sunnydayinmay Yes I'm around your area.

I've known a number of immigrant families who have moved out of the area after a short while, once they found out the reality behind the "good/excellent" schools in the area.

We've had people move into the area and find out that their DC was only able to apply for one of 18 or 19 places at their nearest school not one of 180 or 190 as they initially thought.

Luckily I am quite happy with all the local schools so not too worried. However, the parents who only want the best (top line figures on paper) are looking rather stressed.

sunnydayinmay btw I'm glad it worked out well for you. I come across so many people who have had a kick in the teeth after going through the process that I genuinely feel pleased for those who are happy with the outcome. Well done to you and your DC(s) as you definitely deserved it after what you had to go through :-)

"As millymollymama says though - those bright working class children from a previous generation who went to grammar school are now middle class. (As are a good number of ex secondary modern pupils.)"

Not necessarily - Grammar schools had drop outs, expulsions etc.

And what is so great about being middle class? This is actually why some bright students dropped out - because they didn't want to leave/be disloyal to their roots and background.

There used to be more class mobility and it wasn't just because of Grammar schools. When I first visited The City (of London, eg. financial institutions); there were still quite a lot of the "ex-barrow boys" types around - they didn't necessarily have many/any qualifications, but were extremely good at wheeler dealing.

Oh BTW Ta1kinPeace The other thing with specialism was if say you local specialist school in science was a Catholic school, then being non-catholic but amazingly gifted in science you couldn't go there.

The best bit was my local Arts specialist school having to offer community arts courses.

The nearest five secondaries to us select by sex and ability or faith. I find this very unfair, even though we are likely to 'gain' in the battle of the sharpest elbows. We probably wouldn't get a place at the sixth nearest because we are too far away, our dc would have to travel to other towns if not eligible for one of the five nearest schools.

Slightly off topic but someone described Harris CP as the most over subscribed comp? Has anyone told Kingsdale?!They specifically claimed that multiple times in our dealings with them. All the boasting was a big turn off. And diversity in grammar schools does happen. Immigrant families seem to value education more than most. Non white children more likely to be tutored - read that in newspaper last week. One grammar I have heard under pressure to change the rules to stop the influx of bright (Asian) boys from the inner city using the commuter trains to access the county grammar schools. Upsetting the locals.

Tiiggy, at the grammar I went to back in the Dark Ages, about 50% came from prep schools At least the Pupil Premium thing is going some of the way to address the disparity.
My DH used to teach at a grammar where the intake was well over 70% ethnic minority, but that was down to where the school was rather than sny proactive measures IYSWIM.

In my mind the biggest problem is selection by catchment.
I think the only way to stop the sharp elbowed scrapping for a decent school place is to raise the overall standard/ aspirations. Anything practically difficult to cater to because it's a tiny minority of the intake (whether that's academic gift, Sen, musical or sporting talent etc) could be met by a comprehensive if proper schemes were in place in each lea to utilise cross school or colleges etc to get a decent cohort for whatever minority can't practically be managed in any area. So eg all talented musicians in the area sharing a lesson and so on.
Yes you'd still get some creamed off to independents/ specialist schools, or especially with Sen those whose needs still can't be met, and there'll always be some state schooling parents who will try and avoid darling tarquinella mixing with the council estate kids. But the vast majority only care about getting their childs needs met. Therefore remove the need and the issue will massively reduce.

Re Sen- I think schools can self select to an extent. Get a reputation locally for having awful Sen provision and informed parents will do their best to go elsewhere.

Also I'm not in a selective area, except for religion or money. To realistically take up a grammar place you'd need to move house. The sharp elbowed fight for a suitable school locally comes down to ability to move house for catchment or grammar, or ability to go private.

I think Kingsdale's claim is to be the most oversubscribed Southwark school. 8th in the country for oversubscribed non selective state schools.

Yes, the boasting is very very very annoying. I was tempted to send an anonymous letter to the head telling him it was nauseating and he needed to tone it down. Was particularly irritated by the wheeling out of the pupil with 15A* GCSEs as evidence of the school's efficacy.

Still - it didn't stop me putting the school down as first choice...

Presumably it's that oversubscribed mainly because there is no distance criteria (tie breaker is lottery). So worth putting down, because unless you've qualified for a scholarship or have a sibling in the school, you just cannot be sure of getting a place whether you live on top of the school or the other side of London.

All London schools are over subscribed because the population has risen by 2 million in 15 years
and the idiot Broon sold off the old school sites for housing in the 90's because he did not understand cyclical demographics.
LEAs are not allowed to open new schools so it will only get worse.

One of Corbyn's few really sensible policies is to walk away from the Free School / Academy debacle and make LEAS responsible for providing decent school places for all children again.

walk away from the Free School / Academy debacle

You mean the debacle that has led to the top 500 state schools outperforming the top 500 independent schools, with 16 of the top 20 schools in the country now being state schools? It is true that the average independent school still outperforms the average state school but the gap is closing.

prh
You and I will never agree on the Academy issue, so lets not bring that fight into this thread.

What proof do you have that the Academy scheme made the difference, rather than better pedagogy, monitoring, reporting and pupil nutrition?

I agree with you Mintyy

It's bad enough that you can select for Grammar schools without having selection in comprehensives as well. I am not against private schools selecting, but state education should be a completely and utterly level playing field.

'16 of the top 20 schools in the country now being state schools.'

Any league tables that display 'points per pupil' (rather than % of A/A*s) is somewhat misleading. General studies A level is compulsory at Colchester Royal Grammar School for example but universities don't count it, and psst, have you noticed the 30 overseas students paying fees in its boarding house (state school?!!) which bump up its Oxbridge stats?

Why do so many schools insist on General Studies or Critical Thinking at A level when universities don't give a shit about them?

Partly, I assume, is that it adds to points in the league tables. Perhaps it also helps with university interviews.

Minty, is this in response to my thread about commuting to a secondary? Where it emerged that DD was applying for a music place at a central London comp?

Grammars apart, I really don't see what is wrong with saving a miniscule (and we're talking a tiny amount here, for example 7 out of 120 places, or 14 out of 150, to name two well regarded schools) amount of places for those with musical aptitude and/or skill. It encourages the idea of music of being part of a decent general education, and by offering good musicians/pupils with potential to become good musicians places, keeps music alive in state schools, where it is otherwise dwindling or completely absent.

Yes, the state system should be a level playing field. But sadly it isn't.

Don'tdrink
DDs college (which has 1800 students per year group) used to do GenStud as a useful way of enforcing breadth in otherwise narrow A level choices
and
when A levels were modular it was feasible.
They have dropped the requirement and are focusing on narrow choices again to get past the Oxbridge / RG facilitating list again

which may not be for the good of the 70% of students who do not go to University ...

I agree with Mintty. I don't think state school should be selective at all.

It's ridiculous, unfair and complicated.

All schools should cater to all students be they high or low ability.

When I'm in charge I will ban all selective schools.

BTW My DC all got places at the closest grammar so I'm not saying I dislike selective schools because I'm bitter )

TiggyTape knows what she is talking about.

Presabutton
My DCs attended non selective schools to 16, and the college just asks for 5 x A-C

DD's oldest and best friend is - by his own admission - thick as a brick
but he is a lovely person and our lives are better for knowing him and his family
in his own way he will go far
and the fact that DD understands that "go far" has many meanings
makes her a better person IMHO

I went to very selective schools / unis till I was 21 and it left me utterly unprepared to cope with the real world.