Seriously though, why ARE some state secondary schools allowed to select a proportion of their intake? And I'm not talking about religion here.

[Mintyy]

And why don't they all operate on the same admissions systems?

When you believe in and indeed embrace the state system (rather than private) it is quite a shock to discover that there is no single system, it isn't straightforward, and you will be exposed to a whole weird world of cheating/jostling/playing the system amongst your primary school parent chums to get their dc into the school with the best results. Even if the results simply reflect the fact that there is a selected element within the intake!

It sucks, doesn't it?

Millymollymama Yes, MumTryingHerBest but realistically, in a grammar county the schools are not stuffed full of level 6 children!

I don't dispute the fact given that some of their intake will have come from preps. (in some cases quite a high number in fact). How do your local Grammar schools categorise children who have not done SATs?

My son has just started y7 at a private school, something I'm sad about, having had a great experience at a local (requires improvement) primary school.

The reason we did so is that our local comprehensives are in no way comprehensive. The faith schools cream off, there's a couple of girls in his class who went off to the v high achieving girls' school off the back of their musical older sisters, a couple went to super selective.

It's not so much the creaming off that deterred us, but the fact that there is a disproportionate number of very difficult to teach kids at all the non selective schools. I have no issue with him being at school with tricky kids, but I don't want three times as many as there should be under an equitable system. His primary school had this and I feel he's served his time with children (not recognised as SEN) who can't count to ten, are violent, never turn up on time etc etc.

These are the very children who need to go to the really good schools, but guess what, they don't, they get bundled into the places that don't have any hurdles.

We are now part of the problem, having not sent him locally. He's bright (not genius, but mostly levels 6s) and easily got into these supposedly v selective privates. I feel both guilty and angry about this, but being non-faith, non-musical, our weapon was the financial ability to pay. I would have no hesitation ssnding him to a comprehensive that had a fair share of all abilities. But they were well over half FSM and at least three quarters middle to low attainers.

Millymollymama perhaps this supports the point you are making:

The 11 plus test content varies from area to area.
The cohort varies from area to area.
The number of a academic places allocated varies from area to area.
The size of catchment varies from area to area.
Where your DC needs to be academically in relation to the tested cohort varies from area to area (some schools you need to be in the top 5% of the tested cohort, other schools you need to be in the top 25% or so and then it is down to distance).

There are a number of Grammar schools who have very similar intakes to semi-selective schools and quite possibly to high performing comps. too.

millymolly actually there is statistically no diference in perormance between super-selectives and normal grammar schools.

btw speaking of Andrew Adonis, he sent his oldest to one of my local schools and then his next born to a v high-achieving, aptitude-selecting, faith girls school (the M one). So even the architect of the academy programme opted out, which really helped us to feel confident in it, not.

Millymollymama is right about the SAT's level in Bucks Grammar schools.
Certainly with the new CEM test there are a lot more children how are working at the right levels for Grammar school in Y5/6 but were given extremely low scores in the CEM test so have to go to secondary school. Many of these children were level 5/6 in the Y6 SAT's.
Some local primary schools give extra lessons to those that passed the CEM test so that they achieve well in their SATs as some (of course not all) will have been tutored for the CEM test but then not had any outside school tutoring since the start of Y6.
I suppose from a head teachers point of view it's not going to look good if the number of students that pass the CEM test doesn't tally with their SATS levels.

They will do CATs or similar school based tests when they get into the grammar schools, MTHB. Kent must be in the same position. Indeed some of our secondary schools will not have children with Sats results either. The majority of preps here (but not all) are grammar school "crammers" and have very few, if any, children who leave at 13 +. It is the responsibility of the secondary/senior schools to categorise the children and they do get their 11 plus scores and the 11 plus is now curriculum based. The school assessment data is passed on to the next schools as well.

I have been concerned for many years that poorer children with less high achieving parents have no help to secure a grammar school place. Some primary schools hardly ever get a child into a grammar school but regularly get children with 3 x 5A s at SATs. They just don't get help with exam techniques or help with reading widely or doing extension work and level 6 maths because no-one can teach level 6 work in many primary schools. I do not think people realise that many primary school teachers are not able to teach at this level. It does not mean the children are not capable but they are badly let down. Mentoring would be very valuable if parents wanted it. Instead we have a large tutoring industry that takes money from less well off parents and tells them porky pies about their child's ability and likely test outcomes. It is scandalous!

dolcelatteLover millymolly actually there is statistically no diference in perormance between super-selectives and normal grammar schools.

Which statistics would these be?

Millymollymama They will do CATs or similar school based tests when they get into the grammar schools, MTHB.

I know nothing about CATs, do they identify which SATs level the DC is at?

If you look at the groups of similar schools on the Ofsted data dashboard you will see that super seek gives tend to be grouped together. I am also very aware that the less selective grammar schools can get stellar value added. They are often the very best schools!

The selection test for Bucks never tallies with level 5 SATs results and few children get level 6 for everything so I cannot see why a head would worry unless they are at one of the high expectation primary schools that I had better not name!

Sorry"super selective" that should have read.

I have been concerned for many years that poorer children with less high achieving parents have no help to secure a grammar school place.

Which is probably the most compelling reason for the grammar system and why it was wrong to scrap it. Back in the day, there was a realistic chance for all primary pupils to get in to their local grammar school if they were in the top third (in terms of academic ability). Our town had just 2 schools, a grammar and a secondary, the secondary being twice the size of the grammar, so the "top" third went to the grammar, the remaining 2/3 went to the secondary. VERY few went to the church schools which were tiny compared to their size today! Life was simple back then. 11+ pass marks were generally far lower - typically, in the 65-75% range rather than the crazy 90% plus required today in some areas. Tutoring just wasn't necessary in most cases. I have lots of family, friends etc who went to the grammar but who lived in the council estates with poor and/or uneducated parents.

Today's "super-selectives" catchments are a bastardized version of the old grammar system. It's time grammars (and ALL other selective schools) were either scrapped or properly reintroduced in all areas to give everyone a chance of a grammar-style education. Places wouldn't be so scarce if there were more places - simple supply and demand!

No MTHB they do not replace SATs but they give more info about the child and are usually used with in-school assessment of maths, English and science to stream children. Lots of schools don't always believe the SATs results anyway due to over coaching. Obviously if SATs results are available they use them for their official data but other children have to be categorised somehow but obviously most are above level 4. Perhaps a grammar school y7 coordinator would know more?

Millymollymama what I hate is that children in my area are failing to get into the semi-selectives within walking distance from where they live, yet can get into Bucks schools a few miles away.

Additionally outer catchment places are ring fenced for children living between 2 - 8 miles away from a couple of the semi-selectives yet children living 300 meters away can't get in.

The whole system here is a mess.

I agree fervently that all selection should be scrapped for comprehensive schools. My dd goes to a Science & Maths school, my ds to a school which specialises in Drama & Performing arts. But there was no element of our choosing those schools for them, they were simply our sole choice of local schools. But no selection whatsoever from these schools - they accept each and every type of child, and I really like that.

Harris Crystal Palace - not so long ago they had only 1% low achievers in their intake didn't they, with 29% middle and 70% high. How on EARTH did they manage that in a not posh area of southeast London?

My best friend's ds went to a primary school right in the centre of London. Kingsdale was a popular choice for children from his school to move on to ... in his year, 4 boys got a place. And guess what? they were all white and middle class.

It is corrupt and dishonest and it makes my blood boil tbh!

Not quite sure where you are MTHB but Bucks grammar school do often have unfilled places and they are about 45% of all senior school places in Bucks. The reason poorer children don't get in is complex but making the schools bigger will not help. There ARE places available! We just don't have enough bright children to go and the schools do not compromise. All those bright ordinary people of yesteryear have become middle class and are all well educated!! Their children sail into the grammar schools but the people in the council houses (that have not been sold) are a very rare parent at a grammar school! This is because society and the provision of council houses has shifted! You cannot turn the clock back.

The children who are difficult to get into the grammar schools typically have non degree holding or non HE parents in a lower managerial type of job or parents who cannot help with higher level school work and do not value books over computers and video games. A generalisation but having seen families in a school where an 11 plus pass was rare I can see how these children, within a different family setting, could have obtained a grammar school place. Not a single child was ever tutored by a professional tutor. No-one could afford it. Few children had self confidence or were articulate either. A few mums and dads tried to tutor - largely unsuccessfully. The new 11 plus was supposed to get over these problems - clearly that is some sort of joke!

Millymollymama Not quite sure where you are MTHB a couple of miles away from Chesham Grammar.

Presumably the semi selective is not a Bucks school though? There are spaces in Bucks grammar schools, most years, if you qualify. Other schools have their own admissions criteria and I agree lots are a minefield. It still supports the view that all schools should be good and take all local children. Years ago no-one could ever get to another school and you got on the one school bus that picked you up! No choice but did we suffer? Sometimes choice is a very double edged sword!

Mintyy I've long been absolutely scandalised by Harris CP's admission criteria. Something happened a few years ago which resulted in them being forced to stop admitting such disproportionate numbers of high achieving children (75% at one point). Whatever it was, it went unnoticed and unreported, and now only 50 something percent of their cohort is high achieving at the outset. I'm sure there is something very unsavoury and secretive behind all this. The Harris empire is pretty hideous IMO.

Re: Kingsdale cohort, yes, it is very m/c now it seems. Very high percentage of children from crunchy families. Was longing for DS to make friends with some Olivers and Jemimas to broaden out his social horizons. However, I was dropping his packed lunch around the other day and spotted him in the playground with his new group of friends, none of whom appear to have floppy hair. Ah well, you can take the boy out of The Cronx....

Which is probably the most compelling reason for the grammar system and why it was wrong to scrap it. Back in the day, there was a realistic chance for all primary pupils to get in to their local grammar school if they were in the top third (in terms of academic ability).

No, I don't think so. Just thinking back to my own schooldays, my primary school sent at least 9 girls to the girls grammar school (maybe more whose names I have forgotten) and a similar number of boys to the boys grammar. My friend's school - in the middle of a large council estate - sent two girls to the girls grammar. I am pretty sure that this was typical.

As millymollymama says though - those bright working class children from a previous generation who went to grammar school are now middle class. (As are a good number of ex secondary modern pupils.)

I think it was millymollymama who also said that those who passed the 11+ in Bucks but were sporty didn't choose the Sec Mod which had a sports specialism. (I think I know the one she means.) It also follows that a child who was good at performing arts but not particularly academic wouldn't be able to go to the school with the Performing Arts specialism, because it was a grammar. So the whole system is a farce.

tiggytape Some grammar schools have already tested the current Year 6 and they've only been back at school for 2 weeks

That is the case in my area. Because most other areas held their exams on Super Saturday they hammered my local schools to use them as a free mock.

grammar schools who claim that they test maths and English instead of reasoning to level the playing field against prep school entrants

This is a new one on me. I don't think the grammar schools care what primary education the DCs have had. They are fully focused on getting the DCs that will churn out the best results. However, a lot of schools have moved to CEM on the basis of it being untutorable, which is very much debatable.

We have an academy chain which somehow manages to use its 'fair banding' selection process to exclude children with SEN

There is no way they can use fair banding to exclude SEN children and remain compliant with the Admissions Code. However, it can result in them having a lower proportion of SEN children than other schools in the area. Unfortunately, once people think an academy is using fair banding to exclude less able children there will be fewer less able children applying, which can then become a self fulfilling prophecy.

That is not correct. I know a number of schools that select up to 35% of their intake and Grammars select 100% of their intake.

Perhaps my post wasn't sufficiently clear. A grammar school can select 100% on academic ability and partially selective schools can select any proportion they want as long as the proportion doesn't go up. But a school selecting by aptitude for its specialist subject(s) can select a maximum of 10% of its pupils.

Our local 'comp' takes 15% of its intake every year on selected ability based on a science test

If you are in England that is a clear breach of the Admissions Code and you should refer them to the Schools Adjudicator. Schools may not select more than 10% of pupils on aptitude and they may not select on aptitude for science at all. It is not one of the permitted subjects.

THe specialist school thing became a joke.
There were 8 specialisms.
You could not have the same specialism as any school within 3 miles
so the two schools in the market town had 4 each

Part of the problem was Bliars introducton of "parental choice" - allowing parents to choose other than their catchment school which I am quite open about having benefited from
and at the same time introducing lots of criteria for admissions - that only the educated / MC parents could negotiate
so very rapidly schools polarised.

I've said for a long time that there is no place for selection - by god, gonads or test - in State funded schools.
If people want that they should pay fees.

Yes, there will always be differences between schools
but house prices and rents now are so high that only the very rich can move
and anyway, London schools get nearly double the funding per pupil of Shire County schools - before pupil premium.