Obligatory Orchestra and Choir

[Verbena37]

Hi
At DDs new school, if they have instrumental or singing lessons, the school say it's "expected" you join the orchestra or choir. I knew this from the letter they sent asking for fees but I didn't know they were that bothered about it. (Apparently, they are). DD really doesn't want to. She has moved up from middle school, where she has been having private weekly singing lessons for the past year and will carry on with the same music teacher.....who comes from the county music school. I paid the school and then they pay the music school for their staff.

She has just got a distinction in he rgrade 3 exam, having not done grades 1 and 2 so I'm really proud of how well she is doing.
She spoke to the singing teacher today and broke down in tears, explaining that she really didn't want to join the choir. She isnt friends with anybody in the choir and whilst I know it's important for her to socialise etc, she has a small circle of friends who she gets on well with. She doesn't want to miss out on being with them to be another group of people she isn't friends with.

If the school were providing county music lessons for free, I'd understand them saying they'd like them to join choir....but I'm paying well over £100 a term for her to have private, individual lessons (they are only 20 mins long).

The letter from school doesn't say it's obligatory....it says 'expected ' so do you think I'm well within my rights to say she doesn't want to join the choir?
She also has private piano lessons at home so gets lots of practice of music theory. She wants singing lessons to learn the mechanics of the voice....not to be with others and make new choir friends. (And yes, as a singer, I fully understand how the dynamics of choral singing are different than solo singing.

As a trained classical vocalist, I loved choir and have been in many choirs since I was a teen. I understand how the team work and dedication can be really useful in later life, however, she really, really doesn't want to do it.

What's a good way of wording it to the school?

How old is she? The pressure of it is, for whatever reason, too much for her. I would just tell the school that you're not going to make her go but that you hope she'll wish to join in the future.

I find it odd that she enjoys singing but doesn't want to be in a choir. It's worrying that she's in tears over it. Do you think she's OK?

I'd rather advise your daughter to go along and give it a go - it's a great way of making new friends with a common interest. Given what I have seen it's great to be in a school that encourages kids to join in musical activity and I'd strongly advise making the most of it. She's not going to lose her current circle of friends just by joining a choir and might find it fun once she's had go. I know that's not what you asked but it's certainly what I tell my kids whenever I get the "but I don't know anyone" line. I do not regard that as a good reason for a kid not to do something.

I don't think she should be made to go, but if she enjoys singing it sounds like a good idea and will help her with sight-singing at least.
As pp said, she should be encouraged to give it a go. My parents encouraged me to join county youth orchestra years ago and I was terrified, didn't know anyone etc. Best thing I ever did, musically and socially.

She moved up from middle school so she's what, year 9?

Unless there is going to be a drip feed of SEN or mental health issues I'd say man up and try it. Just because you don't know anyone there now doesn't mean they aren't just friends you haven't yet met. The benefits of having friends outside your own little cluster and outside your year group Is huge.

It's a new school/ suddenly small fish in big pond instead of big fish in little pond thing.

You can't spend your life avoiding things that are initially a bit scary.

I think that for a school to be able to establish a thriving music department, they have to set that expectation. My dc's school did. However, I'm sure that if you explain that your dd is distressed by the whole idea then they will excuse her. I would say that you'll continue to encourage her as appropriate, and that she may well change her mind in due course, in which case you'll let them know and ask if she might be considered for one of the choirs at that point.

Both my kids are musical, ds particularly so. He had been in school choirs from the age of 7, singing solos and taking lead parts in various productions, and learning the flute from 8. But he point-blank refused to join anything at all at senior school for the first couple of years. I think he wanted to suss it all out from a distance first. As it happens, his school music department was first-rate, very lively and lots of fun, so he started joining groups in Y9. Since then, he never looked back. By Y13, he was in 6 singing and ensemble groups and in every play going. All concerts/productions were very well-supported by staff and students alike, so it was a big "shop-window" thing for the school.

Dd eventually joined one (fabulous) choir in Y9 and then left and refused to do any more. All her friends continued going, so no idea what happened. She just said it wasn't for her. I was a bit sad about it as she has a beautiful voice and I could see how much ds was getting from it, but had to accept it really. She carried on with drama groups outside school though.

Yes, that's right, year 9.
I understand the reasons why she should join and believe me, I've tried to encourage her into it.
My question though is how do I confront the school about it? They surely cannot make her leave singing lessons just because she won't join choir?

I doubt it. But as I said, I think that saying it's "expected" has to be their party line. I'm sure there will be exceptions.

Ahh thank you clam, that sounds perfect. I will word it like that and you're right, I think she is just massively daunted of being at a new school.. She was in the choir at the middle school so it's not as though she has never been in one. This will be her 6th school move since she started school (forces family) so I'm not entirely surprised that it's all just too much for her.

I'm a Head of Music at a comp. it's impossible to set up and maintain an orchestra/choir if musicians and singers just opt out. It's also impossible for a child to become good at tgeir instrument/voice without playing in an orchestra/band/singing in a choir (choir/a Cappella work involves learning harmonies and basic music theory).

I also use these rehearsals as an opportunity to develop talented students' musical understanding.

I also provide cake, which persuades even the most reticent children...

Please reconsider your position on this, your daughter might be missing out on an invaluable musical/social experience.

Ah, sorry OP, I see you've been trying to persuade her!

I've complained to DS's music dept about the poor participation in orchestra amongst the musicians at the school and said that it should be expected that they attend. Unfortunately the school give such priority to sport that music looks under appreciated. I would be pleased at your school's attention, though obviously they have to be prepared to make exceptions. To me the whole point of learning an instrument was to be able to make music with other people. It was the best thing about my school life. I'm hoping my DCs will always enjoy that and hopefully your DD will come to enjoy it in time, even if she doesn't feel ready yet.

But that's just it, she doesn't feel the need to make music with other people. And to be honest. whilst I'm a choral singer, I don't understand why you can't make music alone. She could sing in a sound proofed room and it wouldn't mean her voice was any less lovely because nobody could hear her.

Even as a soloist she is going to have to cooperate and work together with others. THAT is what our school tries to promote - we too have the requirement that those in receipt of subsidised music lessons have to join one of the ensembles. And those figures you quote are for subsidised lessons.

She should do the choir.

Or pay full price for the lessons privately, outside of school with a private teacher - not a member of the county music service.

I'd be a tad more concerned that my y9 " broke down in tears" about this to be honest. It seems an extreme over reaction.

My question though is how do I confront the school about it? They surely cannot make her leave singing lessons just because she won't join choir?

I wouldn't "confront" the school.

And yes, they can especially if this requirement was known at the outset. It's on our music lessons application form that the child and parent sign up to.

I have found that school choirs and orchestras are not always much fun or particularly good. None of our kids enjoyed them in spite of (or maybe because of) being very serious about their music.

I wouldn't make her join in, though it would be good if she gave it a try, just in case she really enjoyed it.

Am I the only one who broke out in a sweat at thought of being forced to do either?
(Presumably school selects for musical talent & folk like me would be safely banned from crossing the threshold.)

Not everything is fun all the time. Thinking back to compulsory hockey in the rain...

She'll never know if it could be fun if she doesn't give it a go. #growthmindset

It's only expected if you've opted to do extra curricular music lessons.
No one is forcing tone deaf, non musical types to join.

If you're paying £100 a term then that much be subsidised isn't it? Or the teacher's hourly rate is very low. Plus the music dept are going to the considerable bother of organising timetables and rooms.

All that said, if your slight is totally traumatised by the idea then there's probably nothing to be gained by forcing her. Did she enjoy the choir at the last school? Does the new choir do any fun trips? we had some amazing choir tours which were loads of fun.

Oh and this I'd be a tad more concerned that my y9 " broke down in tears" about this to be honest. It seems an extreme over reaction.

Has this latest move been quite hard on her?

I would say 6 moves of school in 8 years was quite traumatic, yes. Leaving friends on a regular basis she knows she will never see again. Changing schools is extremely detrimental to forces children; both socially and academically.....not only do they have to go to a new school every two years or one year in some of our moves, but there are always gaps in their learning as term work differs from school to school.

Neither of my children have had any sex ed for example due to timings of moves yet DD has done the 'Tudors' topic three times! DS hasn't done much work on telling the time because our moves meant he missed out on his former school teaching it and the next school had already covered it etc.

I did sign the letter, which explained they expect children to join the choir but at the moment, when she has only been there for a week, I know she is feeling the emotions of another school move. I will perhaps look at paying privately for singing lessons if school are funny about it.

Dd's school expects those taking music lessons to join the orchestra or choir too. To me it seems pretty fair because they subsidise the lessons and so I see it as dd giving something back. For dd though it only means attending one lunchtime a week unless there are rehearsals for school productions of course. Dd has made friends with people outside of her form/house and year group as a result. The alternative would be me paying more for lessons and transporting her to lessons most likely on a Saturday morning when we would both rather be doing other things.

Hmm, think I'm going to push her to trying it. It's annoying though as DH is very slack about it and says she give up singing altogether if she wants!
She doesn't want...she adores singing.

I think she should as well, if possible - that sense of "giving something back" is the right one. And being part of the school and proud of it. At one of my schools, many of the talented musicians went out of school to do other choirs and orchestras, and refused to bother with the school ones, and it came across as really arrogant and divisive, like they were too good to bother with everyone else. She probably wants to avoid coming across like that, in case she needs references, or wants to get involved at a later date, etc.

Plus it could be really good for her too meet other peopel.

Verbena no way should she give up if she loves it! Is your DH on glue?