Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Obligatory Orchestra and Choir

39 replies

Verbena37 · 11/09/2015 17:55

Hi
At DDs new school, if they have instrumental or singing lessons, the school say it's "expected" you join the orchestra or choir. I knew this from the letter they sent asking for fees but I didn't know they were that bothered about it. (Apparently, they are). DD really doesn't want to. She has moved up from middle school, where she has been having private weekly singing lessons for the past year and will carry on with the same music teacher.....who comes from the county music school. I paid the school and then they pay the music school for their staff.

She has just got a distinction in he rgrade 3 exam, having not done grades 1 and 2 so I'm really proud of how well she is doing.
She spoke to the singing teacher today and broke down in tears, explaining that she really didn't want to join the choir. She isnt friends with anybody in the choir and whilst I know it's important for her to socialise etc, she has a small circle of friends who she gets on well with. She doesn't want to miss out on being with them to be another group of people she isn't friends with.

If the school were providing county music lessons for free, I'd understand them saying they'd like them to join choir....but I'm paying well over £100 a term for her to have private, individual lessons (they are only 20 mins long).

The letter from school doesn't say it's obligatory....it says 'expected ' so do you think I'm well within my rights to say she doesn't want to join the choir?
She also has private piano lessons at home so gets lots of practice of music theory. She wants singing lessons to learn the mechanics of the voice....not to be with others and make new choir friends. (And yes, as a singer, I fully understand how the dynamics of choral singing are different than solo singing.

As a trained classical vocalist, I loved choir and have been in many choirs since I was a teen. I understand how the team work and dedication can be really useful in later life, however, she really, really doesn't want to do it.

What's a good way of wording it to the school?

OP posts:
notinminutenow · 12/09/2015 09:20

Well if you signed the letter...

Surely joining the choir is one way to settle in quickly, perhaps make friends and be part of the school community.

School aren't being "funny about it" - they just want children to work together and give things a go. Seems only fair as teachers are giving up their time to ensure that the school has a good music offering. Loads of schools don't.

Verbena37 · 12/09/2015 09:55

It's tricky because apart from her close friends, she is quite anti making new friends. Not in a mean way but she isn't the kind of person who wants lots of friends. There was a thread on her PE a few weeks back about people who don't want or need other people. I see that DD is quote like that...apart from the 5/6 close friends she has. Some people just like many friends and to me, that seems reasonable.

OP posts:
CrotchetQuaverMinim · 12/09/2015 11:50

Yes, she doesn't have to make new friends if she doesn't want to. She might find that she just enjoys being in an environment with different people, though, without getting close to any of them. It's a good social skill to learn, to belong to groups etc. And if anything does happen with her small group of friends, it might be quite comforting to have a space apart. Teenage girl friendships can sometimes go through some difficult phases.

But it might be worth exploring what she is finding so difficult about it; if it's something really worrying her about doing it, etc, then finding ways to support her or make it easier would be good. Or if it's going to cause too much anxiety for some reason, then I also wouldn't force it, but have a more gentle introduction, suggest her friends come, make a buddy/mentor system, etc. Or if she is really embarrassed or feeling left out from her other group of friends, there might be reasons why not to make her. Perhaps she could take a little time to get used to the school move - but she might find it easier to do it now, rather than after everyone else has started.

But if it's just not wanting to, or it being too much effort, or too much change, etc, then I'd be insisting a bit harder, because she has some duty to do what she can to support the school - for a school to offer a selection of music lessons, it needs to have a culture of seeing music as important, and that can mean also having ensembles. If people won't join ensembles, it makes the musical culture of the school less, and thus less impetus for musical opportunities in general. And particularly if she is benefiting from the fact that she has the chance to have lessons through school - someone is organising that, getting the teacher in, arranging a room, arranging a timetable, etc, and possibly subsiding the lessons or at least having access to them at a decent price - it seems a small thing to ask that those involved give back by participating in ensembles. Good ensembles will help the school be known for music, will help good pupils want to come to that school, will attract good music teachers who enjoy conducting the ensembles or getting them involved in trips and competitions, etc.

Pupils who just take from the system won't be that popular with the staff or others, because there can be this implied sense of being better than everyone else. It might not be the case at all, but they could still get that impression. And that's not a great position to be in, when she might some day want to be involved in something or be chosen for an event or get permission to miss school to do something or have a reference.

Good school choirs and orchestras can also do tours and competitions that can be a really fun way to travel - totally different than travelling or living somewhere with family. And it could give her the chance to be involved with that.

Could some of her friends be encouraged to join too, even just for the first rehearsal or two? They might well accept people who don't do singing lessons too. Or the singing teacher could introduce her to some others, before she has to go in. If she wants to be a better singer, and do higher level exams, she might find that learning skills in choir will help with that - singing harmony will be good for her tuning and aural skills, her sight reading will improve, she'll learn some theory as a result, especially if she doesn't always sing the tune. Maybe just put it to her that way, that her singing teacher thinks she ought to do this as a way of supplementing what is happening in lessons. People at Saturday conservatoires are always made to do more than their primary lesson - they do second instruments, ensembles, choirs, theory, aural lessons, etc. - all because it helps them become more musical.

YokoUhOh · 12/09/2015 14:29

Our top A level student went from a B grade at AS Music to an A grade at A2 last year. The difference? He joined choir, learnt about four-part harmony and had an extra hour per week 'living' music and getting advice from his teachers. Win-win.

ealingwestmum · 12/09/2015 16:11

It's called contributing and representing the school, in return for the school providing the subsidised ability to learn.

Sounds like she's talented and a natural. But missing out of being with her friends is what's driving her reluctance...that's a little sad and selfish, albeit understandable at her impressionable age.

Fair enough if she's crippled with public singing anxiety, but as other PPs have pointed out, there is so much more value from being in the choir, that she might not see today, but may regret later down the line.

Teamsmanship is a strong quality to develop. Representing her school should be encouraged (I know you can't force her, though I'd force mine for sure). Can she not just give it a go for a period so she doesn't red flag herself so early into her new school as an 'it's all about me' girl, especially when you knew what the expectations were from the start?

KittiesInsane · 12/09/2015 16:54

You say she has a small group of friends and doesn't need others.
But I wonder, could there be someone in the choir and orchestra that she is actively avoiding? That's certainly what put DS off.

claraschu · 12/09/2015 17:39

I don't understand why not wanting to join a particular group means that a child is "selfish" and "all about me". Extra curricular activities should be interesting and enjoyable for the children (though of course they won't always be fun all the time).

It is perfectly possible to not enjoy and not learn from a school orchestra or choir. Quite a few music groups in schools are dreary and uninspiring; if you play well, it can be quite destructive to be forced to sit in a crappy school orchestra.

Some kids are put off of music by the fact that they are forced to join in school ensembles, which sometimes take up 2 or 3 lunchtimes every week and mean that it is impossible to participate in another club.

ealingwestmum · 12/09/2015 18:01

Agree it can be dreary if they're rubbish. But a school tows a fine balance. It cannot offer quality orchestras/shows if its talent does not want to participate.

It can't get out of that cycle, stops trying and invests in other areas because of lack of interest. Then parents moan that there isn' t a decent music provision! Admittedly, there is no excuse if the school has full inclusion and still turns out dreary performances...then there's an issue.

I have every support for those children who do not like ensemble work. But then, the school should not be subsidising those children. They should find support outside, and then there's no obligation to join these clubs. Shame, but no obligation.

I hope my DD's new senior school (only 2 weeks in) continues like her non- related junior, where participation from all standards was a given. The quality was outstanding. Both for parents (especially non musical ones who had never appreciated before) and the children, who didn't know they had it in them because they didn't think they were musical.

Didn't matter if someone was grade 1 or 8...all were celebrated and turned out some fab concerts.

I have empathy the multiple moving around and feeling of unsettlement. But to not try...then they shouldn't have committed in the first place.

ealingwestmum · 12/09/2015 18:08

Yes, hideous also if just one level orchestra/choir where it can be demotivating for high performers to lower to the less able. But a lot of senior do have different levels...not sure in this case though.

When my DD moans like this (and she can, as she has to do ALL to help those less developed), I do remind her that she was also crap once...Grin. But she does get a sense of pride when the others grow in confidence and start to shine.

ChristineDePisan · 12/09/2015 18:15

The slightly ironic thing is that playing in an orchestra or singing in a choir is the sort of thing that can help a move to a new place - instant social circle, shared interests etc etc...

PiqueABoo · 13/09/2015 00:02

I've got a musical Y8 DD and I'm @Verbena37's DD's corner.

I'm struggling to imagine any kind of musician who doesn't derive pleasure from solitary performances, or use it as a excellent but sometimes very personal outlet for any colour of emotion etc. Perhaps this isn't true for every single instrument, but in general the collaborative stuff is another side of musicianship not the raison d'etre.

However I can imagine lots of reasons why a child may not want to do the collaborative stuff, especially at that age. I definitely wouldn't be able to get my DD doing that unless one or more existing good friends joined her.

DD doesn't have lessons at school, but they are ~ £120 per term for 20 mins per week with county music service peris and there is no obligation to do anything. They probably encourage, but they do not "expect".

PiqueABoo · 13/09/2015 00:03

I'm in @Verbena37's DD's corner.

ealingwestmum · 13/09/2015 08:08

You know your children better, and if they prefer to do stuff only accompanied by other friends, fair enough.

My try before you judge is my approach. Doesn't work for everyone.

ealingwestmum · 13/09/2015 08:43

I'd have the same attitude if she was selected to represent the school at a sport. The commitment of early morning, lunch, after school training with weekend matches. Even if DD's best friends were not selected, she would still be 'expected' to support her school. Same with music...

I understand not all extra curricula is popular, but I am trying to encourage DD to have some community spirit, if she is called upon. She doesn't object, and it has bought her more diverse friendship groups, though appreciate there would be nothing worse in OP's DD's case!

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread