Would you consider a private secondary school with only 30% A*/A grades at GCSE and A Level?

[ftangftangolebiscuitbarrel]

DS is only 8, but I am thinking of Year 7 already and am looking at through schools, so that he can join a prep in Year 5 and go up to the main school.

There are a number of options near us. The nearest school's latest published results are (as in the title) 30% A*/A grades for GCSE and again at A level.

DS is bright but lazy. He can show brilliance at NVR, maths and his reading age is nearly 12. However, his Literacy (writing stories, comprehension etc) is poor (only because he's bone idle, let's be honest) and I suspect he coasts along in Humanities.

I'm worried that a school with a lower quota of top grades will allow him to coast along through his external examinations. I think he might do better at an alternative school where the cohort gets 45-50% top grades.

Do I consider the local school where he will have friends dropping in at home, or do I send him further away so that he can reach his full potential? It's a hard one. His current school is academically excellent, but it's 20 miles away and we're feeling a bit isolated, especially as his classmates talk about what they get up to after school / at weekends, but that's because they only live about 5 miles away from each other.

We relocated - he was very popular at his last school, lots of local friends etc, so his isolation isn't because he's socially inept.

So, friends or A grades?

Do I gamble on the local school?

I've booked to look round and I'm sure they'll give me the spiel about how great they are, but at the end of the day, 7 out of 10 of them get B grades or less.

Has anyone else had to make a similar choice?

BertrandRussell, it depends on the intake of the school doesn't it. If 30 % of children are SEN or not academic then 70% C grade and above is fine.

Data only tells one part of the story, which is why using it to judge schools is ridiculous.

I do not get the feeling the OP is talking about the sort of private school that has 30% SEN. I'd really like to look at some schools like that- could you name a few for me?

Why don't you have a look at the independent school league tables for A levels as published on the Telegraph web site. There are plenty of schools around the 25-30% A level at A/A grade, Bertrand. You will see there's are plenty of schools in this bracket. One is Bryanston at 36% for example. There are many other well respected schools. In the independent sector there is a school for every child. For example, Sibford, as a Quaker school is non selective and has quite a lot of dyslexic children. It could be they have worked wonders to get their A level results. Very many independent schools do not get 100% A-C grades at GCSE either. Sometimes my local grammar schools don't achieve this either!

People have the ludicrous notion that independent schools are stuffed full of super bright children. I also totally agree with the point made earlier that the quality of teaching is key. This is why Ofsted are so keen on improving teaching. Anyone in education knows this is vital. Few children make excellent progress or get top results without good teaching. In fact, outstanding teaching can make up for parental shortcomings. If this was not the case, few disadvantaged children would get to university.

Independent schools are also about so much more than grades. You should look for lots of other things that make the independent school the right choice for your child. This could be sporting opportunities, music, drama, leadership within a House structure, traditions, a vast array of extra curricular opportunities and the best advice for university applications. If you are in the market for private education, you tend to know where your child sits academically and where you sit financially. Some schools, eg Stowe, Bryanston, Kimbolton, Millfield etc are not full of high academic achievers but they are still full and clearly people will spend £30,000 plus to attend such schools. Obviously parents like the product and are prepared to pay for it. Therefore choosing a school is clearly not all about grades.

The ISI report will state on the first page how the ability profile of the intake compares with the national average. But I do not know what data this is actually based on (sats?) or how reliable this is.

If a school has below average ability intake and get 30% A-A* then (IMVHO) should have a high value added and do a great job. If average, then perhaps "OK" is fair - but not too impressive. (If above average then school is very poor).

This can perhaps also be used to test assertions made (without evidence) on this thread.

Few schools are truly non-selective though (at least in London where we are); there is normally a test. Anyway, I would be more inclined to send a bright boy (i.e. above average) to a school where his peers are also bright, but above all a positive atmosphere where children take pride in doing homework and doing well, hoping it will gradually rub off on him.

"People have the ludicrous notion that independent schools are stuffed full of super bright children. "

In don't think this at all. But I repeat, I would be very reluctant to fork out money for a school that (SEN excepting- didn't think was necessary to say that) couldn't get the vast majority of it's kids to a C at GCSE!

I'm not sure what the percentage of A grades are at dds school it's A-C went up this year to something like 94% but many of those grades were B/C

It is not academically selective so I feel it's not fair to compare it to the school that ds will go to which is academically selective.

Dd is bright & is hoping to get mostly A's. It's the right school for her.

Bertrand - We are talking about 30% A-A grades - not A to C grades!!!! C grades don't come into it regarding the OP's question. Obviously only 30% A*-C grades puts ANY school in a low performing category. You would, quite rightly, Bertrand look elsewhere if this was the stat we were talking about and definitely avoid if it was a state school too!

Well most good to outstanding state schools manage to get 70 percent or higher to 5 A*-C at GCSE including English and Maths. That is the vast majority.

I would agree with the post upthread that said about looking at the wider picture about what extra curricular and spcial opportunites are offered, how good the pastoral care is etc.

Also do this and loom at your local secondaries, many of them offer a great deal of opportunities that they wouldn't have back in the day. For example my non selective comp, has all sorts of interhouse competitions, sporting fixtures for a wide variety of teams, drama, music , great pastoral care etc etc.

I'd also be very careful when discussing quality of teaching. Having worked in a partnership with different private schools across London in my career, it was noted by SLT teams on both sides that the state school teachers brought a lot more good practice in terms of teaching methods, differentiation and such to the work than those from the private. So always look for the value added scores as well, its not hard to take a bright students who is hardworking and compliant and get them an A, its much harder to take an average student or a perrenial underachiever and get them to achieve their potential and more.

"Bertrand - We are talking about 30% A-A grades - not A to C grades!!!! C grades don't come into it regarding the OP's question. Obviously only 30% A*-C grades puts ANY school in a low performing category. You would, quite rightly, Bertrand look elsewhere if this was the stat we were talking about and definitely avoid if it was a state school too!"

No- I was defending my assertion that the A-C figures are much more useful and revealing than A-A. The A*-A figure means very little on it's own.

Actually, the "vast majority" do not!!! You are wrong if you think that. And statistics do not bear this out across the country. Plenty of schools do, of course, but definitely not a vast majority. Many good schools get less than 70%! I live in an area with state grammar schools and secondary modern schools. Only one sec mod gets over 70% (including maths and English) and yet the vast majority are "good" schools. I could point you in the direction of lots of "good" comprehensive schools that don't get 70% A*-C ( including maths and English) at GCSE.

However, the OP specifically mentioned A*/A at GCSE and A level. This is a totally different statistic but is the one used by The Telegraph for their league tables.

I completely agree that not all teaching in independent schools is good. It is also the case in state schools. London is known to have vastly improved the quality of teaching over the last few years. Other areas, notably Northern cities, are lagging behind. As a parent, you can look at the value added, the inspection reports (Isis ones can be works of fiction so I would be careful with these) and how well individual subjects achieve (if a school will give you this).

If that "vast majority" post was directed to me, Milly, could you have another read of mine? I think you misunderstood me.

I think that was directeed towards me. Milly Most good to outsanding schools do, otherwise they would not be rated good to outstanding and tirgger another ofsted. There is a floor level below which you fall and therefore cannot get a good or outstanding, depending on your value added of course, some schools will add a lot of value and still not achieve 70% and therefore be able to achieve it. I know that at my school we are well aware that if we go below this level it would trigger and inspection!

Ds's school is "good" and has a floor level of just under 50%. It is incredibly hard for a secondary modern to achieve that. Much harder than for a grammar school to achieve 95%.

lurker the floor level is a LOT lower than 70%! It's certainly less than 50%.

But as I said, above some schools will add lots of value and not be able to achieve it, meaning that their floor level will be different.

Blah anyway, back to the thread.

Look for a private school by all means, but be aware that not all private schools are academically rigourous and that if you are in the area of good state schools you should look there too. There are far too many people put their trust implicitly in the private system to obtain results when that is not always the case that they will do better than the state schools available.

I was responding to longtimelurker. The comment about 70% of A*-C grades being achieved by most state schools . Sorry if this has got confusing - my fault!

I was just trying to point out that, as the percentage of schools achieving 5 GCSE A*-C grades (including maths and English) is 58.9% for England, plenty of good schools will be below the 70% stated as being a benchmark for a "good" school.

I actually think all stats are useful to get a picture of what a school is about but a dearth of higher grades might make you think twice about paying, if grades is all you value. There is also a judgement to be made about what the local state alternatives are. Of course there are many brilliant state schools, but you only have to read MN to find there are ones which are not good, where sport is not valued, there is little music tuition and a school drama is. It well developed.

Out of interest in Barnsley, Bradford, Doncaster, Rotherham and Sheffield there were only 13 state schools where 70% of students achieved 5 GCSEs at A-C in 2014 and 2 of these were grammars. Obviously looking at the A-C grades compares stats but not value added.

FUCK i hate my computer.

I typed in a load of stuff and it's disappeared. I will have to do this in stages. Fuck.

Right, school on thread, for Bertrand

GCSE - 100% A-C, 31% A/A
A level 82% A-C, 28% A/A

This is comparable (or slightly below) the national average.

Alternative school:

GCSE 96% A-C and 52% A/A

Neither school state whether these stats include English and Maths, which, if they don't, is a different story altogether.

A Level: 84% A-C. No direct comparison available as they only publish A/B grades at 65%

Current school (DS is in feeder)

GCSE no overall pass rate, but 91% A-B, 30% A-A

A level 90% A/C with 30% A-A

I have a daughter at ANOTHER school who has just done her AS levels. That school's A level results are 100 pass rate:

A/A 41% A/C 88%

She got AABC which fits into these stats exactly. However, she is gutted because she wanted AAB, even though her results fit into the top tier of the stats and her boyfriend got ABDE which fits into the wider tier of the stats.

Moving - some of you have said that we can always move him again. I really don't want to do this. We moved to a different part of the UK last Autumn so he has already changed schools. If I move him, then move him AGAIN, he could end up in 4 different schools by the time he's in year 10.

Oh god, I don't know. We're currently buying school shoes and he's saying he doesn't want to go back to school. This is the first time (he's about to go into Year 4) that he's ever said this.

They all sound good. Obviously the alternative school has the best A*-B results.

But there are also things to consider here too. SOME schools in the private sector will only let you take the paper if you are likely to get an A -C grade. Also try to drill down into the subjects offered. If one school is achieving 30% A*-A but offers a limited number of facilitating and STEM subjects thats great. The higher place may offer a larger range of softer subjects etc etc.

Data and results are not all to think about though, bear that in mind, there is the wider picture too. Academic hothouses can be unbearable for children who do not flourish in those conditions.

I know, lurker - DD's school is amazing and I'd send him there in a heartbeat. But she's a full boarder and we're not ready to send lickle baby DS off to board yet, say I at all, says DH.

If he is unhappy at school, how are you intending to ensure he can see friends, as this appears to be the problem? Can he start doing activities after school and make friends that way? If you moved prep schools, you would have 5 years in that school, assuming a 13 plus entry to senior school. It might be worth thinking about and lots of people move schools if their child is unhappy.

You could be better off finding him a boarding school at 13 plus if you are unsure about the local day schools. Could he not do the same as his sister? This would be my aim as he won't be your baby forever. Lots of prep schools do boarding part time and often children board more in years 7 and 8. Also with common entrance I am not aware of schools making judgements on what GCSEs a child may get regarding offering a child a place. They do, of course, take SEND into account. It is down to you and the prep school as to where you apply for senior school. I think schools that your child will get into, and will meet his needs academically, is a good starting point.