Is medicine realistic with these GCSE results?

[HamaTime]

6As and 4Bs?

Not my dd, but my niece and she is coming over this afternoon and I know she will ask what I think.
What I actually think is given the quality of her education (really good school) and how hard she worked (very) she probably won't get the grades she needs in her A levels to get a place but I'm not sure if I am being overly harsh. I think she's done really well and she should be proud of herself but her 1st choice uni wants A*AA at A level.

Here are the GCSE requirements for medicine for 2013 (so slightly out of date, but will give the flavour)

www.thestudentroom.co.uk/content.php?r=15897-medical-school-gcse-requirements

So she doesn't meet the entry requirements for several courses who require more A*/As at GCSE.

If she worked really hard to get those results, then she is probably not going to get a string of top grades at A-level in the sciences and maths.

At a really good school and working very hard for those grades I think she might struggle.

Take a look at the student room.
I would say that 6as is the minimum but she still needs to get excellent AS a high score in the Ukcat or Bmat relevant volunteering and work experience and an exceptional personal statement to get an offer and then of course excellent A levels

That's really useful, thanks. DBro is convinced 'nobody will look at GCSEs' but given that she will only be halfway through A-levels when she applies then I don't see that they have much choice.

She's got loads of work experience/volunteering sorted out (thanks to 'posh' school connections) and a part time job/hobbies/music etc.
I'm tempted to say 'FFS do something else' because I'm not sure that she isn't just looking for DBro/SIL approval but she hasn't ever given any indication that is anything other than her genuine choice.

She has great grades and she needs to carry on working hard, pick the right A levels, and do her very very best.

A decent set of A levels will allow her to achieve her potential and even if it's not medicine (many students don't get medicine offers) then her choices will open the doors to many other opportunities.

She is going to have to get some experience in too for medicine.

Are her A grades the sciences and Maths? Or were some of those B grades?

Also do be aware there is a post graduate medicine course available at some medical schools, so if your DN cannot get a place after A level, then she can do a degree in another subject ( ideally something related such as Biomedical sciences, but not necessarily) and if she still wants medicine she can apply for the 4 years graduate entry course.
It will take longer than direct entry after A level, but it's another way into medicine that some people do not realise is a possibility.

I'd also point her in the direction of the vast numbers of articles showing doctors leaving the UK as they are miserable or slagging off GPs and hospital doctors.

Is there anyone medical in the family or that you know to talk to her?

I think she would struggle with those GCSEs and as a career, it really isn't worth that level of struggle. There are many many other careers she could do which will be just as rewarding but not as draining.

On the positive side, it really doesn't matter in medicine where you studied, like it does in some other careers. No-one ever asks you about it or cares on a CV - loads of doctors aren't UK trained anyway. So it's not vital to go to the A*/AA university. But your DB is wrong, they very much do look at GCSEs.

Although studentroom does have universities that accept Cs for Maths, they will be awash with applicants that have A*s. There is also a lot of A level standard Maths in the course.

Medicine is highly selective. The published grades are the minimum required for entry. In practice, even if a student with lower GCSEs makes the cut for interview, its debateable how many of them get an offer. Depends on how the selection is done, so I would be reading the different medical school's published admissions policies very carefully in your niece's shoes.

I did my GCSEs almost 20 years ago (yikes)

I applied for medical school, and received 4 out of 5 straight rejections. I contacted one of those to be told it was because of my GCSE results, which were similar to your niece (although I think I got 1 or 2 A*)

They definitely do look at GCSE results - and it's more competitive than ever now.

Not saying she shouldn't apply, if she can achieve well at A level

There has been significant grade inflation in the last 20 years. As kindly as possible, your experience is not relevant here disco.

Shamefaced apology disco - I misread your post as 4/5 offers. Your experience is totally relevant!

I don't think it is feasible, sorry.In mediicne they seem to like a good level of general ability across the board.I do know of one exception though.One of DS1s friends got 5/5 rejections for medicine.Astonished everybody by getting 3A*s and an A at A level and got into medicine in clearing.I think it is very unusual for medicine to go into clearing though so he was extremely lucky.It is definitely not something you can count on

Dd1 is also going to be applying for medicine.The minumum number of A she aimed for was 6-8.She had to have A in science and maths for A levels.The science A levels next year are not modular - not split into As1 & As2.Hence Gcse's will be very important in the short-term for university entrance.Medicine applicants need to be very good at passing exams otherwise you won't make the grade.
I honestly think its kinder to look at other careers at this stage like life sciences.It is still possible to do medicine after,if she obtains a good degree and is determined enough to do this.

Haha, apology accepted! Yeah there has been grade inflation, that was my point!

Hmm. Does she really want to do medicine as in can she not even think about an alternative?

If so I think the clever long game would be to plan a gap year ( doing a load of relevant experience at least till interviews over - starting straight after a levels, don't wait for results- take a holiday after interviews!) Then apply, grades in hand and shed load of experience showing dedication and aptitude - even if it's care home work - willingness to get stuck in and wipe bums shows a huge commitment.

Graduate entry is even harder than undergrad. Don't bank on that.

She must read around what to choose as a 5 th on her application. There are much more interesting " paramedical" areas than the obvious " medical sciences " which where most " wanted medicine didn't get it " end up . DS ( on paper your typical medical applicant - with the right grades At the end including the A*) got 2 interviews, no offers. He's done 1st year neuroscience and loving it. It's easy he says and he's getting the grades and having a fab time too. He's planning research and work in a clinical area. I am very relieved in the current climate I think being a doctor is not a good career choice.

Mind you those in the profession who are pushing their ( maybe not hugely academic) kids into it seem to have a back up plan of Irish applications ( or Dutch ) as well as UCAS and a back up plan of training in Rumania / Bulgaria where the teaching is in English and the qualifications " the same" but very low entry requirements. Not sure how I feel about that but it's happening .

Another saying very unlikely sorry. Tbh it sounds like she isn't cut out for it academically. A grade GCSEs I think tend to turn into A/B at a level which clearly aren't enough. If her sixth form are on the ball they should advise her gently to consider other options.

Interesting - I don't know anyone in the profession pushing their kids into it, quite the reverse. If their kids pick medicine they are obv proud but if they pick something else they are hugely delighted that their kids won't go through the same treadmill they did.

I'm not going to push any of mine into medicine.They have to decide themselves.I have many consultant family members and know how relentless medicine is.It can be a soul-destroying and hard job not to mention all the politics of it all nowadays.On the other hand dd from being a baby has always been fascinated by blood and guts.

On pushy medical parents, I went to school with a girl who wasn't strong academically but worked hard. She sat the basic maths and single award combined science (worth one) GCSEs. Then in 6th form she was suddenly doing biology, chemistry and physics A Level so she could do medicine! She drowned in the work and ended up with Es and an F. Her arsehole father saw her GCSE results were more than he'd expected (Bs and Cs) and pushed her into it. She could have had good passes in other subjects and gone on to a decent university. Last I heard of him he was up before the GMC ...

The science A levels next year are not modular - not split into As1 & As2

I din't know that (My dcs are younger), but that will make it worse.

She did really well on her coursework so it's definitely the exams that she dropped on.

Is there anyone medical in the family or that you know to talk to her?

I know quite a few Drs but they are all people I was at school with and back then people were getting in on ABB, and even BBB. It's a different game now. To a man they hate their jobs and it's not something I would encourage my dcs into but DB is very much of the doctor/lawyer and everything else is a failure mindset (he is neither but does have a good job)

Does she really want to do medicine as in can she not even think about an alternative?

I think she can't think about an alternative because she's 16 and idealistic and has had this medicine mindset for so long and she doesn't know what other jobs there are in the world. If I was feeling unsisterly I would say that she wants DB/SIL to be proud of her, and she knows that this is how to make them proud. They are nice enough people but they have very fixed ideas about 'success'.

I wouldn't really know how to advise her. I know there are lots of related degrees in BioMed Science, BioChem etc but I don't know what people actually do with them when they graduate and I wouldn't want to encourage her down some path that doesn't have a career at the end of it. I wondered about pharmacy as a 'vocational science degree' but I don't think the job would appeal. Her best subject is chemistry. She's musical too but that road may be a bit of a lurch at this stage.

I have friend from school who went the Czech Republic (medicine) and Spain (dentistry) at their parents behest when they didn't get a place in the UK. Not sure what SIL would think, she keeps her on a short leash.

How long ago though? There were parents like this when I was at school in the 80s but medicine was a very different career then. And the pushy parents weren't confined to medicine by a long chalk - lots of parents at my school who were incapable of seeing their child might have different interests and ambitions to them or just didn't care because they'd paid for their education.

Crossposted, sorry.

I can relate to the 16 and set on medicine - I wanted to do medicine since I was about 4 - when children want to be a doctor, a train driver etc. Most grow out of it, realise they hate science, don't get the grades etc - but I liked science and was getting the grades so ended up in it almost by default. I basically had no idea other careers existed.

It's reassuring to me but depressing to hear that all the doctors you know hate their jobs - it's the same for me and my friends. However it's nearly impossible to tell a keen teen this. I used to get work experience students, spend a week telling them how shit it was and at the end without fail I'd get a card saying 'thank-you for a brilliant time, you've convinced me I really want to do medicine' Because although I was exhausted and oscillating between bored shitless and terrified, what was mundane to me was impossibly glamorous and exciting to them.

All I can suggest is you try pointing out to your brother the amount of debt she will have on graduation, the current fuss about 7 day working, massive salary cuts being proposed, raids on pensions, articles about doctors emigrating and see if he is still as keen as it seems he is a big driver for this. And cross your fingers she doesn't get the grades and does something far better instead.

I know that some courses have up to 100 candidates for each place and yes (I have one doctor who has been involved in recruitment to one of Medical schools and they look at GCSE results).
Someone should talk to her steering her towards some other degree which would come useful for when applying for postgrad Medicine course and for now she should be picking up 3 subjects for her A levels which fulfills requirement of Medicine anyway.

I would suggest that it may depend on which subjects the As were in.
If they're all the science/maths ones, and Bs in History, English (possibly) RE and Art, then she may be okay.

But the fact she slipped in the exams would also be of concern to me. Doctors do a lot of exams. And continue doing exams after qualification. IF she doesn't hold up well to exams then she will struggle with the degree. Sorry.

What I think I'd say to her, assuming her maths/science marks were As is that it is going to be a struggle, but what she really needs to do is make sure she has brilliant work experience, and as much as reasonably possible without effecting school grades.

I would also say that even the top medical applicants have a back up plan as many do not achieve it. That might be going for a related subject, or, something that is different. Although I believe you have a to be a little careful about putting that on the UCAS form as they may query how committed you are if you're going for something different.*

*I don't know if the unis can see what you've applied for other places. That was always what people said 20 years ago, but it may have been a myth back then.