Is medicine realistic with these GCSE results?

[HamaTime]

6As and 4Bs?

Not my dd, but my niece and she is coming over this afternoon and I know she will ask what I think.
What I actually think is given the quality of her education (really good school) and how hard she worked (very) she probably won't get the grades she needs in her A levels to get a place but I'm not sure if I am being overly harsh. I think she's done really well and she should be proud of herself but her 1st choice uni wants A*AA at A level.

I think maybe if she got stellar A2s and then applied with known grades, and a years relevant work experience,they may overlook her GCSEs .But to be honest I doubt stellar A levels are going to happem

From this year kids aren't sitting AS any more so in a way GCSE results are becoming even more important when applying for competitive courses.

Well she's here. She was really subdued and she said she doesn't think she will get in. Apparently DBro has now suggested resitting GCSEs

She asked me what I thought and I was going to be blunt but I caved and asked if she really wanted to be sitting exams for the foreseeable future and maybe she should look at other courses. I played up the getting a good job that isn't as stressful angle without being too firm about what the 'good job' might be. She said something about law (which I would guess is uber competitive too), which I bet is her Dad's idea because she's never mentioned it before.

Her As are Maths, Eng lang, History, Music, Chem and Physics.
Bs are Biology , French, Eng Lit, RE.

She is doing Maths, Chem, Biology, History A-levels.

I've said I'll take her to some open days if she wants me to. I know she should be doing it on her own but I feel that right now she needs some support from someone who isn't a medicine/law obsessed control freak. Feeling quite cross with DB, she's done really well but they've turned it into a failure, and I'm guessing that to them, having been to 11 years of parents evening etc, it's not a total shock.

Younger DN and my dcs are glued to the wii so we are going to shut the door and watch Airplane. She's never seen it.

You sound utterly lovely HamaTime

If she is thinking about law, that isn't necessarily bad (although I'm sure you are right, it's her dad's suggestion) as it does mean she's thinking about other options than medicine. You could try and draw out what sort of things really interest her?

If it helps, I finally finished taking exams age 36 and I was training full time in a specialty with a shorter qualification than others. And I've just discovered I'm going to have to start writing essays again You have to really really be OK with taking exams.

Airplane is a great choice

My DD wanted to do medicine, and got 2 A, 8 A's and one B at GCSE last year. She has been at a very good school too, and the head of sixth form put her off, and said for a grammar school pupil universities would expect a minimum of 5 A's at GCSE. She took Biology, Religious Studies, Physics and Chemistry for AS level. The teacher was right that she wouldn't make the grade for medicine. She found AS level Chemistry really difficult and got a D, with A B C in the other subjects. So she is relieved to be dropping Chemistry, and now hopes to do a Biology degree with Philosophy. I am proud of her, and I know she did work hard so couldn't have done better.

Students who resit GCSE's are frowned up during MEds application process.

If she got B in GCSE biology how on earth is she going to be able to get A in her A level?

Besides Biology isn'r compulsory for Medicine!

You do sound lovely OP and your DN is lucky to have you. No chance you could knock some sense into your DB?

I have a relative who got straight As at GCSE then AAA at A level but didn't get an offer for medicine last year, though did this year following a gap year. One of DS2's friends also got straight A at GCSE and didn't get a medicine offer. Another very good friend of his got all A*/A at GCSE, has AAAA at A level, plus AA in two further AS subjects. He didn't get an offer either. And, as others have said, universities will be looking for higher grades from those who have been to 'good' schools.

DS1 was discouraged from doing A level Biology because he had 'only' got a B at GCSE.

Your DN is obviously bright (she has As in some very difficult subject) but it really doesn't look like she's cut out for medicine.

Could you not encourage your DB to let her focus on getting good grades in her best subjects and then let HER decide what she wants to do? Not many people know at 16 what they want to do with their lives (I'm in my 50s and I still don't know!)

Chemistry is the only level compulsory for medicine. The step up in maths and the sciences is huge and she should consider very carefully her a level choices. She may be better off doing chemistry and 3 others she likes or finds interesting - psychology is acceptable for medicine.

I've known kids who have done massively better at A2's than GCSE. Even ones who were at good schools and appeared to be working hard. I don't think she needs to rule out medicine just yet. She still has time to prove herself.

She is taking hard Alevels so is going to have to work very hard right from the beginning. Is she doing any prep for the beginning of term. There are a series of books called Headstart into Maths/Chemistry etc that she could get. My kids used them.

I agree with whatwas, and several others, don't stamp on her dreams! Taking her to open days is a great idea, if she's going to go off medicine, let it be her decision. I also agree with the working her butt off, seeing what grades she can get, and then applying, if applicable by then, with known grades. DS1 also got 6As and 4Bs, had a shakey Y12, but then figured it out, and got AAA in chemistry, biology and maths. It's rare, but it does happen! Best of luck to her and you, she's lucky to have you

I took DD to an open day at Sheffield University last month and we went to a talk about applying for Medicine. The admissions tutor said applicants must have 6 As at GCSE and stressed that there was no advantage to having better GCSEs.

It would definitely be good to go to some open days and get a clearer picture of what's available and what the requirements of different courses are.

Boo

I don't think it is helpful for people to suggest to someone with a GCSE profile as described, that they should keep their dreams of medicine alive because their A Levels might far surpass their GCSEs. This is encouraging false hope and isn't based on the reality of the applications and selection process but wishful thinking.

When someone applies for medicine in just over a year, their GCSEs will be the crucial thing that is seen, as AS levels no longer will count towards A levels in most subjects. GCSEs will be THE deciding factor about if an application is binned or an interview is given. My DH works is a selective school and tells me that they are very successful in getting people into medicine, but in the last few years, no one with less than 7A* grades has got interviews or a place and most who have got in have better than that. It is the reality.

So unfortunately, it is true that doors are closed to candidates even as you g as 16. People might wish it were not the case, but it is. Yes, there will be a few people who buck the statistical trend and go onto get an A* at A level having had a B at GCSE (tiny number) and some might make a post A level application successfully, or apply later in life and be successful, but in terms of the usual 17 year old applying after a year of A Levels, only stellar Results will do.

The girl in question has gained good grades, however people need to be aware that there are a huge number out there who do have a long string of A grades and when courses are competitive, A is the currency that candidates need, as well as the work experience etc etc. I think it is misleading and unfair to suggest otherwise to a 16 year old who might have wanted to do medicine.

As for retakes - people who get onto medicine at 18 are not people who did or needed to do GCSE retakes...they simply aren't.

Wombat

I get what you are saying but I don't think you are correct in implying (?) that those with middling GCSEs should give up any thoughts of doing medicine.

Have you read Sheffields medical school admissions policy? If you had you will see that the OPs DN would not be disadvantaged in any way by her GCSE grades.

Here is relevent paragraph:
In Stage 1, applicants compete against the minimum requirements. There is no compensation between academic attainment and UKCAT attainment - both requirements must be met. While many applicants exceed the minimum academic and UKCAT requirements, we do not rank applicants according to academic or UKCAT attainment, and there is no advantage in our selection process to those who exceed the minimum requirements

As with all medical schools the requirements are clearly spelt out. These are Sheffields GCSE requirements.

GCSE passes at grade C or above in Mathematics, English and the Sciences

(which may be dual awards).
You should have at least six A grades in GCSE subjects.
The six A grades may include Mathematics, English and the sciences.
Acceptable science GCSEs include: Biology, Chemistry, Environmental Science, Mathematics, Physics, Psychology, Sciences (dual awards)

Please note:

The GCSE requirements should have been met by the point of application.
The relevant GCSEs should be studied for no longer than two years.
The six A grades must all be obtained in the same sitting.
The required C grades in Mathematics, English and the Sciences do not need to
be obtained in the same year as the six A grades.
We do not accept GCSE resits.

So although things are not looking great for the OPs DN if she pulls her fingers out and fulfills all the other entry requirement (impressive UKCAT, A2s, work experience, PS, etc) she will not be disadvantaged if she applies to Sheffield or another medical school that operates a similar pass/fail selection criteria for GCSE's.

Medical schools put an awful lot of thought into their admissions requirements. If medical schools such as Sheffield who only require 6As at GCSE wanted their candidates to have higher GCSE grades they would have an admissions policy that required or favoured them.

Her grades are good. But unfortunately, they're not excellent which is what you need for medicine as it is so incredibly popular. Also, if your niece had to work really hard to attain those grades then she might find top grade A Levels beyond her grasp.

Admissions tutors can cherry pick from applicants with teams of straight A* and As at GCSE and A Level. And even then they're not guaranteed a place at medical school.

A student I know got into medicine with less than stellar GCSE grades but he did move to our school from a school that was closed down, his parents had never been to university etc etc. I think he got AAB at A level and was one of the most personalable and pleasant students I have ever met. I suspect if he had been at a great grammar school from day one with pushy parents he would have got A* in everything.Medical schools understand this but I don't think students with slightly lower grades for no reason have much chance.

As an example, a friend's DS got 11 GCSEs. 7 A and 4 As. Did 4 hard science A Levels and got A and then A A B. Played an instrument to grade 8. Had relevant work experience.

Didn't get a place at medical school. God knows why? But this just illustrates how ridiculously high the standards really are, compared to what appears in the prospectus.

Its very competitive, there isn't a place for everyone even with perfect grades. The interviews/ screening questionnaires are also very good at filtering out those who are arrogant, naive, don't have the right personal values etc. Grade 8 music is irrelevant. You can have lots of work experience and learn little from it. I feel sorry for students who are rejected but it is often the most suitable and most able students who do eventually get a place.

I am interested in the fact that Sheffield require GCSEs to be studied for no longer than 2 years. How many students does that rule out given lots of schools study them over 3 years. I wonder how many schools realise 2 years of study, not 3, are required?

I've just had a look at the GCSE requirements for most (not all) other UK medical schools for 2016 entry and I can't find any others that consider GCSEs in the same way as Sheffield. All the other ones I've looked at give credit to higher GCSEs.

The weighting varies from place to place.

It's not looking good for the OPs DN .

However, I've heard Sheffield is a great city and you only need one offer

Minimum really should be 5 A* at GCSE. I am sure lots of people have said this already but she won't get looked at for medicine courses with those grades. They are good grades, but nowhere near good enough. Sorry!

Another option is to apply for biomedical science and then get onto a med course from there - a popular route. Good luck.

Milly this one of the reasons that most very good schools that help students get into top university courses do the GSCE course in two years. I think more schools are moving to this system now but I think it often schools that don't have a sixth form that seem to so this.

I haven't spoken to her again but right now I honestly think that A - she won't get in and B - she probably shouldn't.

The school she is at is the 'best' girls school in our city for results. She's been there since she was 4. Both her parents are degree educated and she hasn't had any issues with illness or family trauma or anything that would skew her grades. If she'd sacked off or went to an awful school or something had happened then I could see maybe she could turn it around and get A/A for A-levels but she worked hard and didn't get a single A for GCSE.

I worry that if she tries to apply then she will get rejected across the board and then will not have a place for anything and will accept whatever she can get through clearing. That said, I'm reluctant to stamp on her dreams if she still wants to give it a go. I think I will stand in the background for a while saying 'hmm'.

If that's the case, then unfortunately her 'best' isn't going to be good enough. If she's at a top performing all girls' school then they will expect seriously impressive grades with a privileged educational environment like that.