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Secondary education

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Language GSCE mandatory for all new Year 7s ?

63 replies

mjuyhn234 · 13/07/2015 14:06

Attended my DS induction evening last week where it was announced that in line with latest gov policy all Year 7s would be required to study the Ebacc subjects, one of which is a language up to GSCE level.

It'll also play a part in the Progress 8 measure. In order for a school to do 'well' , pupils will need to study a language. i.e. if they don't study a language, then 10% of the progress 8 measure will automatically =0 as that particular ‘e-bacc' slot will be empty.

schoolsweek.co.uk/all-pupils-to-take-ebacc-subjects-to-age-16-says-schools-minister/

Happy for any secondary teachers to correct me. Slowly getting my head around this measure and what impact it will have on my sons education. I have sympathy for schools as they have to work with the measure that the gov has thrown at them but it won’t help DS!

I'm annoyed about this as it wont be in my sons best interest to study a language, he has issues with literacy and Ed Phy report has suggested we steer well clear of MFL. His time would be better spent doing something he can achieve at rather than scraping a pass on a subject he already dislikes. He’s had French for an hour a week since year 3 and its not an area of natural ability!

DS will attend the local upper where traditionally about a third do a language GSCSE. I guess they will have to employ more MFL teachers to cope with the demand for the kids doing GSCEs in 2020 as practically all will need to do a language. If they don’t, then the school risks lower scores on the Progress 8 measure.

I think it should be sufficient to study a language until age 14 and optional thereafter.

If a child has low literacy scores, I can’t see any benefit to that child in learning an MFL.

OP posts:
mjuyhn234 · 15/07/2015 21:29

PastBy: I read somewhere that Ebacc for all will affect those starting Year7 in September (wish I'd kept the link, it was a speech at end of June).

You only get to double your English score if you take both English Lang and LIT, the best grade gets doubled. And even more ironic, I think you get to use the 'spare' English grade as one of your optional Extra Ebacc counts. Its all very convoluted! If you only do one English GCSE, then your score is not doubled.

Lets kick those poor kids with literacy issues just a little bit more ;)

DS schools intention is to make him do a language. I guess with a view to keeping their Ofsted Rating. I'm concerned at the extra effort he will have to put into that subject just to scrape a pass. His time could be spent elsewhere to develop areas where he has natural ability, like Maths/Science.

Good q, has to how much SEN will gain you an 'exemption'.

After 4 years of French, he can just about manage a Bonjour. Unless language teaching at secondary can perform some sort of miracle, I'm not holding my breath! I can support him but I think it will be a very painful process.

BTW: I also think that Progress 8 is flawed when you look into it. Some crazy formula taking the raw SATs scores from Maths and English.

Couldnt look at your link yet but will, thx :)

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FuzzyWizard · 15/07/2015 22:12

I would imagine that in most schools timetable constraints will mean that the odd one or two exempted students will be doing fewer subjects as a result they probably won't be able to switch it for another subject as other optional subjects wouldn't be running in that time slot.

JuliusSeizure · 15/07/2015 23:46

Making a foreign language a mandatory GCSE is ill-considered at best (much like the new school measures, but that's a different subject which I briefly touch on later).

Let's look at this logically.

The purpose of education, as defined by the DfE, is:

  1. Economic
  2. Cultural
  3. To prep for adult life

So, how does a foreign language fit into that?

Economic - Nope. The fact is, 99.99% of school leavers will not need to know another language to succeed in business. Even if they end up working with people from other countries (like I have) the language of business is English. That's why most other countries learn English. In some rare circumstances, language knowledge would be useful, but the chances of the language learnt in school being the same one as required later in life is slim to none, assuming, of course, that you can remember any of it when the time comes.

Cultural - Nope. I really can't see how picking on one country is going to broaden your cultural horizons that much. I can see why people in non-English speaking countries would learn the language - there's so much TV, Film etc broadcast in English. On the travel front, English is spoken natively in so many countries, and is a common language in many non-English speaking countries too. You would have to question the logic of learning any other, especially as there are so many to choose from. I've travelled the world and got on fine with just English. I'm not talking package holidays here, I'm talking trekking jungles and rain forests. Did I miss out? - no. And before you argue that I probably did, but I just didn't realise, my foreign language option in the 80s was French. Out of the scores of countries I have visited, French may have helped in just 4 (that includes Canada, so I'm scraping the barrel on that one). Perhaps when it came to obscure things on the menus in out of town restaurants it would have, but all you need to do is ask the waiter (plus, now-a-days, there's an app for that!). Talking of apps, you can now do real-time translation. It's even built into the beta version of Skype. Think where that will be in 5 years.

Preparation for adult life - Err, no. I struggle to see how a foreign language would practically help at all here. So much so, I'm not going to write anymore.

When it boils down to it, given we already speak English, there are far better things children could be learning at school to support the 3 'purposes of education'.

For native English speakers, I feel that learning another language is an intellectual indulgence. Something you may do later in life, either for fun or to support a specific career or a move to a retirement country. Unless you have the opportunity to practice a language, you forget it.

Yes, in other European countries, they all learn English and many are bi-lingual. That's not because they have a better education system, it's because it's in the economic interest of the countries to learn English. It's the language of commerce, the language of travel and easily practiced due to the disproportionate amount of English media available. Learning English gives you an immediate and sustainable advantage in the world. It just so happens it's our native tongue, so let's use the 'saved' time for something else. As for the points people have made about learning a foreign language helping you in English, that, from my harrowing experience, is utter nonsense.

Now, let's move on to the fact that some children simply have no aptitude for languages (including English, like me). It's simply going to be a waste of time them being in these classes. Not only for them, but also for the other children attending, as the 'strugglers' will end up disrupting the rest of the class. Believe me, there NOTHING more demotivating or humiliating than struggling with a language. For me, it just killed languages for good (perhaps the reason why I feel so strongly about this). For others, it could destroy a child's confidence in other subjects too. It nearly did for me. In fact, I had to take GCSE English 3 times to scrape a C so I could go on to Uni. Post Uni, I've had a great career in technology.

Sure, if after 3 years, you find that you enjoy the language, then carry on to do a GCSE. If not, do something else. Something you enjoy, or have an aptitude for, or, perhaps even something that will help you get a job.

Now onto the EBAC and School Ratings.

A language is mandatory for all pupils starting year 7 in September 2015.

School ratings will be (erroneously - another subject) calculated based on 8 GCSE results. There needs to be at least 5 EBAC subjects in that score - Maths, English, Science, History/Geography and a foreign language. The remaining 3 can be from other subjects (and not necessarily GCSE subjects either).

The score from the maths result will be doubled (fair enough, it's important).

The score from the English result is ONLY doubled IF English Lit is also taken as a subject. If English Lit is taken, the best result from either Lang or Lit is doubled, and the worst result can be used in the overall rating calculation too.

As a result of this 'odd' rule, English Lit gets a disproportionate weighing. Mix in the compulsory language, and people like me who struggle with language, will be screwed. How does that fit in with the three purpose of education points? - spoiler alert, it doesn't.

So, with this rating system, it's mathematically advantageous for a school to force pupils to sit English Lit. Fair enough if they can sit the exam without having to attend any lessons, or have any impact on other, more useful subjects. But, it's a terrible performance methodology if doing Eng Lit prevents a pupil from doing other subjects or overloads them in other ways.

For the record, I'm terrible at language (including English), but excel in mathematics and science. I have an exceptional career in advanced technology and I'm making a significant contribution to this country's economy. Given the way technology is advancing, not wanting (and failing) to sound arrogant, this country will need more people like me in the future. The new EBAC and school rating system would put me at the bottom of the heap. I would fail. People like me would fail. If this is the route we are going down, we will just have to hope that people who can quote Shakespeare in French can find the cure for cancer.

Hmm, I was going to leave it there, but that last comment was a bit harsh. I guess the point I was trying to make was that the economy does not need a bias in language skills, not that they are totally redundant. It's all about balance and these latest changes are not balanced.

CamelHump · 16/07/2015 06:28

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CamelHump · 16/07/2015 06:29

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CamelHump · 16/07/2015 06:34

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Lurkedforever1 · 16/07/2015 09:21

Good point on what degree of sen constitutes an excusal, surely it can only be judged on an individual basis?

mjuyhn234 · 16/07/2015 11:57

J Seizure: Loved your post, you've encapsulated everything I have been thinking, and trying to say. Very eloquent!

CamelHump: Yes I can see why schools will comply with this latest policy. Its a brave one that takes a stand and puts the interests of the children first.

I think the latest push for Ebacc for all is very misguided, borne out of an old fashioned idea of what constitutes a 'worthy' education.

OP posts:
muminhants1 · 16/07/2015 12:20

For the record, I'm terrible at language (including English), but excel in mathematics and science. I have an exceptional career in advanced technology and I'm making a significant contribution to this country's economy. Given the way technology is advancing, not wanting (and failing) to sound arrogant, this country will need more people like me in the future.

And I am the opposite. Yes we will need more scientists and engineers, but people need a natural talent too. We DO need linguists and teachers and researchers and journalists and lawyers and accountants as well, and there's no need to force those who prefer humanities to do loads of science. You can't turn someone who's useless at science into an engineer. However learning a foreign language might open your mind a bit.

We are talking about ONE MFL. One. My son has to do double science, some schools actually demand three sciences. Thank goodness my school only required one science. Why can't we just have a balance? English, Maths, one MFL, one science, one humanity, the rest choice as far as the school timetable allows.

The sections of your post about culture and success in business are very parochial. You do know that people in other countries learn more than just English? Go to Finland for example and people speak 4 or 5 languages well. And I'm 100% sure that you would have got more out of your travels if you'd had more languages. I dislike visiting countries where I don't have some knowledge of the local language, unless it's somewhere like Norway where really everyone does speak English. But trips to Italy are much more enjoyable with a knowledge of Italian (and I've used German in the north). There's nothing worse than trying to make yourself understood and failing.

And learning a foreign language DOES help you with English. I only learnt to spell necessary after learning Latin.

TinklyLittleLaugh · 16/07/2015 12:36

My eldest two are poor at languages, As and Bs across the board but Cs for languages. I blame DH, very bright but got CSE grade 3 for German.

DD2 was struggling in the same way as the others and chose Latin as her language option. There's no speaking and listening, it's all pretty logical and you can get lots of marks for knowing interesting stuff about the Romans.

She's reasonably confident she'll have got an A at GCSE and apparently it counts for EBac or whatever. Just an option that others who struggle with languages might consider.

Millymollymama · 16/07/2015 12:43

So learning a MFL is not cultural, economic or a preparation for adult life? Sorry, but that is tosh! What a closed mind! We should embrace MFL in exactly the same way we embrace other subjects. Education is not solely about work. It is about broadening the mind and engaging with something that just might be a bit challenging or even something a child absolutely loves. The British have this dreadful habit of closing off education. Other countries have a far more open attitude and do better.

Any school that decides all pupils will have to do an MFL will have to ensure progress in this subject or Ofsted will not be happy. Schools will know some pupils will not engage and their parents are not engaged either so it will be tough. However, that can be said of a number of subjects now that we only want STEM ones for economic, cultural and adult life! Shall we forget about the arts and culture altogether? No theatre, music, fashion, sport, languages or art? They are all obviously just an indulgence. Lets just do STEM. Except not everyone can do these subjects to a high level can they? No wonder our education system fails young people when even parents do not care about a broad and balanced curriculum and only want to cherry pick bits of it. Give the children a chance at everything. MFL is not an intellectual indulgence. Our exports are going down. We are not embraced by Europe. We are known as a country that sits back and lets everyone else learn our language because we are too lazy to learn theirs. I actually detest this view of us and do want it to change. So lets hope the children do enjoy learning an MFL - you never know, they might surprise you all! Just to let you know - very intelligent people learn languages. Let's try and welcome their skills because our future depends on them too.

SallyMcgally · 16/07/2015 14:47

The sections of your post about culture and success in business are very parochial. You do know that people in other countries learn more than just English? Go to Finland for example and people speak 4 or 5 languages well. And I'm 100% sure that you would have got more out of your travels if you'd had more languages. I dislike visiting countries where I don't have some knowledge of the local language, unless it's somewhere like Norway where really everyone does speak English. But trips to Italy are much more enjoyable with a knowledge of Italian (and I've used German in the north). There's nothing worse than trying to make yourself understood and failing.

So learning a MFL is not cultural, economic or a preparation for adult life? Sorry, but that is tosh! What a closed mind! We should embrace MFL in exactly the same way we embrace other subjects. Education is not solely about work. It is about broadening the mind and engaging with something that just might be a bit challenging or even something a child absolutely loves. The British have this dreadful habit of closing off education. Other countries have a far more open attitude and do better.

100% agree with both of these.

mjuyhn234 · 16/07/2015 15:29

STEM isn't for everyone either but by making anything mandatory raise its profile and should be cause for discussion.

I wonder do other English speaking countries have the same debates about MFL and their importance, do they bemoan their lack of language skills too?

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