Language GSCE mandatory for all new Year 7s ?

[mjuyhn234]

Attended my DS induction evening last week where it was announced that in line with latest gov policy all Year 7s would be required to study the Ebacc subjects, one of which is a language up to GSCE level.

It'll also play a part in the Progress 8 measure. In order for a school to do 'well' , pupils will need to study a language. i.e. if they don't study a language, then 10% of the progress 8 measure will automatically =0 as that particular ‘e-bacc' slot will be empty.

schoolsweek.co.uk/all-pupils-to-take-ebacc-subjects-to-age-16-says-schools-minister/

Happy for any secondary teachers to correct me. Slowly getting my head around this measure and what impact it will have on my sons education. I have sympathy for schools as they have to work with the measure that the gov has thrown at them but it won’t help DS!

I'm annoyed about this as it wont be in my sons best interest to study a language, he has issues with literacy and Ed Phy report has suggested we steer well clear of MFL. His time would be better spent doing something he can achieve at rather than scraping a pass on a subject he already dislikes. He’s had French for an hour a week since year 3 and its not an area of natural ability!

DS will attend the local upper where traditionally about a third do a language GSCSE. I guess they will have to employ more MFL teachers to cope with the demand for the kids doing GSCEs in 2020 as practically all will need to do a language. If they don’t, then the school risks lower scores on the Progress 8 measure.

I think it should be sufficient to study a language until age 14 and optional thereafter.

If a child has low literacy scores, I can’t see any benefit to that child in learning an MFL.

It is truly laughable how bad the UK has been in languages. My children now go to an international school abroad with children from all over the world. The one or two British children in each year 7 class are the only ones not at least bilingual.
The other children have a large range of academic ability, but they seem able to manage languages and so should the UK!
My car driver for the first month actually speaks seven languages. The kids were amazed when they asked him and I was humbled...
The kids now do about double what the UK schools in the past have done on MFL lessons and are picking it up quickly. They had free choice but I actually pushed them both into German rather than French or Spanish as I think it more useful. German has a much steeper learning curve than Spanish and I suspect if a child in the UK is going to find a language hard, Spanish is probably the easiest to get to a GCSE standard in.
The only children who do French here are the French children
Lots have tried Mandarin and are massively enjoying it.
I feel ashamed of my own poor UK education and hope that these new requirements change it for the better. However, yes I wonder where all the teachers will come from!

Agree with Marmite . At my Dss comprehensive it has always been compulsory to do one language to GCSE. He HATED French at primary school and chose Spanish instead adding German in year 10. He has done both at GSCE and will also be taking them at A level. I think t makes for a more rounded education.

My understanding is there is an exemption for SEN students - so if they struggle with basic literacy, they don't study a foreign language (I think the idea being the extra time is used to focus on literacy).

That said, for most students I agree completely with marmite - I remember going on holidays to Europe when I was younger and being amazed that children my age in the Netherlands / Denmark / Sweden were fluent enough in English on the whole that we could communicate and play. I think for most students it's important to learn a language. My school was a language college and we all had to do two languages (French and German) between Year 7 and Year 9, and it was compulsory to take one at GCSE. I took both, Spanish was just coming in as an option (I think nowadays that's taught instead of German in a lot of UK schools) and wish I'd had the opportunity to learn that back then!

I am very pleased that MFL are compulsory. It is ludicrous to say that you need to be high ability to learn another language - special needs don't seem to hold back language learners in other countries so why in the UK? In my son's school one MFL is compulsory but that's all they can do (they teach three languages but can only fit one into the timetable they say, especially once they add more Maths and English lessons to teach to the more difficult GCSEs). So my son is doing Spanish at school and KS3 German via online learning.

GCSE is useless really, but it's a stepping stone to A level, when you do make rapid progress. Half way through my lower sixth year I suddenly realised I could understand German TV and read books.

As for the pointless time-filler RE, my son's school have worked out how to get a GCSE out of it, so at least it won't be a complete waste of time.

I have heard that there is an argument for dyslexic children to learn a MFL. This is because you do "basics" like practice telling the time and if you haven't picked it up already then it becomes a useful lesson that might help you fill in that gap.

With regards to RE GCSE, mine will have a qualification but it's a waste of time in terms of the positive skills like essay writing being covered in other subjects like history and English. I think that it shouldn't be compulsory at non-faith schools at all.

See I love languages and regret that I've lost fluency in one & can barely scrape by a bit in others, but ... we have so many problems getting DS to engage with education at all. He's clever, it's not a cognitive barrier, he just has Attitude. Forcing him to scrape a C in German or whatever would have had so little value to him and been a lot of stress to his teacher watching him underachieve, especially when it would have displaced a subject DS can sometimes muster enthusiasm for.

Very well to talk about ideals of a 'rounded education', but that's for kids who value education and aren't a complete PITA. Somebody tell me why it's a great idea to have kids study a non-core subject who are going to Hate it, Resent it, and Stubbornly underachieve.

Agree with FuzzyWizard.

Also, your son's only about to enter Year 7, by the time he is in Year 10 or 11, the government is bound to have changed everything again!

Anyway, I hope your son gets off to a good start in Year 7 and likes his new school, along with all of his classmates.

Not sure it will change as current gov is in for next 5 years! His education will be shaped by this latest policy.

I don't mind him learning a language in year 7/8 but object to it being one of his GCSE subjects, it's just not in his interest. He has poor working memory and processing.

It would be interesting to hear from secondary school teachers who teach lower sets and hear their views.

Whatever kudos (if any)was associated with doing ebbac is diluted if practically all do it!

Time for me to go investigate what's actually in a language GCSE and how I can support him.

It's been a while but I can still remember learning 250 irregular German verbs by rote ! Hope things have changed since my day.

yeold - by making a language compulsory, the govt is restoring them to being part of the 'core' curriculum, along with Maths, English, Science, PE and RE. My own view is that languages belong with the subjects that children should reasonably be expected to do (with exceptions made for specific learning difficulties.) Mind you I would merrily see the end of PE, for instance. I wouldn't get rid of science absolutely, but I'm riled that DS's school want all children to sit all three sciences, which takes up a huge number of their options. There'll always be unhappy people when subjects become compulsory.

I learned the irregular German verbs by rote too, OP. I still remember them today. And I speak fluent German as well as fluent French, English and of course Dutch. I also learned all the French irregular verbs by rote - when it comes to language learning, some things just have to be done by hard graft. It isn't fun, but it works. I really don't think anyone should have a problem with that, it's no different from learning to spell and learning times tables.

Hard graft to some extent yes.

Someone mentioned a thousand French words: I don't know if it was the same little pocket sized book that I had but it was split into groups of 10 words each section. Being pocket sized it was handy to keep with you and just pull it out for five minutes or so whilst waiting for the bus, so I didn't really find that hard graft but more a good use of otherwise wasted time.

I know some language teachers shudder at that method of learning, but I learnt a good deal of vocabulary that way, and a decent vocabulary always stands you in good stead.

I wonder how they do teach MFL now.

Is it 'Look and Say' for MFL ? If so it seems at odds as to how someone learns to read in English in primary with phonics.

Endless rote learning sounds dull.... be enough to dissuade anyone from attempting to learn a language!

Pointy:
Don't think you can compare Times tables to languages, i.e. there are only about 50 number facts in the 12X12 tables to learn. English spellings should mainly rely on phonics knowledge, then there are the tricky spellings that need to be learnt by 'graft'.

IMO you really have to want to learn a language to succeed at it.. but added to that there ARE people who are more gifted linguistically. I don't know exactly what it is they have.

In life, as adults we usually end up doing something we have natural ability in. MFL is not for everyone.

OK then, OP - what about all the other facts we have to learn in order to get through our exams? All the factual bits that make up the sciences - currents, the circulatory system, the periodic table, all the different types of hydrocarbons? Then there's Geography and History - lots of learning of factual information there.

There are ways to make learning vocab and verbs bearable - you do it in bite-sized bits and pieces. When I did mine, we had 10 French irregular verbs to learn every week, starting in Year 9. We did a set every week and when we came to the end, we started over again. Yes, it was boring - but it was 15 minutes' revision a week, hardly torture. The same applies to properly learning the rules of grammar, and you do get a payoff quite quickly in terms of being able to express yourself in a foreign language.

I agree that not everyone can learn to speak and write a foreign language really well - but a basic functional grasp of a second language is in everyone's grasp given a good approach to language teaching. Which we are not going to get.

I actually like it, however I think there should be a get out where everybody agrees it's not in the childs interests, so some sn, or where they're so behind with eal they are effectively still learning English in every other subject. I can think of at least several people who struggle academically, some with sn, that are actually really brilliant at other languages. And yet because they will/ do/ have struggled at the beginner level writing or the memory aspect of seemingly unrelated words/ verbs/ irrelevant phrases, could easily drop it thinking they aren't any good, despite the fact they actually are/ have the ability to be amazing in conversation. I know that for even a c at GCSE being fluent conversationally won't get you as far as the ability to write very basic phrases and vocab, but at the least its a subject they may do better/ enjoy more than maths, science, English etc. More importantly, especially for a child that won't get a career where even basic academic skills are required, speaking other languages well gives them choices they might otherwise have.
Off subject but I think offering 3 sciences to those who want it should also be mandatory

yes I wonder where all the teachers will come from!

the teachers are there in my son's school - but the head says there is too much pressure on the timetable - more English and Maths lessons, a greater emphasis on science and coding/computing. The kids have all got to be engineers or scientists in future it seems. So there's no room on the timetable for more than one language.

So the school teaches three languages: French,German and Spanish but the kids can only do one from Y7, to GCSE level. And they can't choose which one.

I did French from year 6, then picked up German from year 8, as I was in top set French. I found German much much easier, and my less able brother was very put out that he had to stick to French.

However, I hated MFL. I did not find any of it helpful and couldn't imagine needing any of the phrases I was taught. I remember one girl answering "what's your name?" with "Alice." and getting told off for not saying "my name is Alice" It was, from our point of view, as if we were being taught an overly formal version of the language that we wouldn't use, ever. And the terrible 80s videos (in the late 90s) did not help.

Nowadays you can do things like Skype with English language learners abroad and have actual conversations using modern forms of language. That would have been fun, but I bet it's not attainable for a lot of schools.

I haven't spoken German since.. 13 years later and I still haven't needed to tell my boss I'm late because my hamster died. Shocking.

My friends family moved to Asia for school and her little sister did Mandarin as her second language. Much more useful!

mjuyhn234

maths & English are manditory for new GCSEs (both will count double).

that leave 6 other subjects for the Progress 8 figure schools are assessed by which have to come from the prescribed list of EBACC subjects: www.education.gov.uk/schools/performance/secondary_14/English_Baccalaureate_list_of_qualifications_February_2015.xls

MFL is not mandatory - but can be one of the options. Some schools strongly encourage students to take MFL to GCSE level - but it is not obligatory.

Each school is different but most will let you take up to 10 GCSEs - so there is scope for 2 other subjects not on that EBACC list as well (which won't feature in school's progress 8 figures).

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I stumbled across this article from King's College London which explains the upcoming changes to GCSE and how the government will set targets for current Y7 pupil's in 2019 & thereafter based on their KS2 SATs scores: www.kcl.ac.uk/sspp/departments/education/research/crestem/Research/Current-Projects/CogAcc/files/Understanding-and-using-Progress-8-final.pdf

I found this very illuminating - explains a lot of the underlying logic to these changes.

HTH

Only three have robe from Ebacc subjects on that link! The other three can be from a very wide range.

PastSellBy, MFL isn't compulsory for the Progress 8 measure, but the government have just come to power with a commitment in their manifesto to make the EBacc compulsory for all pupils unless SN. If schools don't have all pupils taking EBacc they cannot obtain Outstanding or Good Ofsted levels.

EBacc compulsory for all pupils unless SN. If schools don't have all pupils taking EBacc they cannot obtain Outstanding or Good Ofsted levels.

Presumably 100% of NT children? Although that's still ridiculous.

How SN is SN? SA, SA+ or S only?

That's not clear, honeysuckle. Very glad my DS2 in Y10 (with statement) has escaped this. He couldn't speak English until he was at school, MFL would be a complete waste of his skill set. (ICT. )