Colyton or Torquay Girls?

[Trambuctious]

If all goes very very well on the exam day this will be the choice we need to make. Has anyone had to decide between these 2 schools, and how did you do so? We've been to the 2 open days, and they came across very differently, but were both tempting!

nameshifter nameshifting in the way that you've done it is vastly more dishonest than any omission I've made to protect my privacy, entirely legitimately. You're being very underhand on the other hand. I'm completely in my rights to speak as a long serving parent and if you read my posts I've been very precise in neither defending nor criticizing the school because I've not the slightest interest or motive in doing so. I happen to be happy with the school for my DC whereas you're clearly not. My DC been happy too, on the whole. I think I'd be worldly enough and experienced enough to spot weaknesses and strengths in any school that I knew well and this school is no exception. But I don't feel any need to share and most certainly not on this forum.

I don't name change to try to out people illegitimately it's true and my DC are very relaxed. The family is unusual in size so there's no point in being slippery really. I prefer a more open approach but it's my call if I want to give every last detail of my life shifter, not yours.

nameshifter a partner who happens to be, say, an Associate at Linklaters, on £150k, might look slightly askance at downshifting for £70k. And the late nights aren't so easy, with the last train from Waterloo to Honiton leaving at 8.20pm, when there's still three or four hours work yet to go. 'Find work' indeed. Up to a point Lord Copper...

Broadchurch I would feel the same if I thought DC were being incorrectly associated with having a mental health problem (or any problem for that matter).
This was absolutely never my intention and I'm certainly sorry if my complaint about the student(s) being prevented from dropping a subject inadvertedly gave that impression.
Whether you choose to believe it or not, that was the very specific, if inappropriate, example they were given by staff, but evidently it was a completely spurious one given your and others' experiences and I accept that DC drop subjects for their own reasons totally unrelated to health.

I hope I have made things clearer.

As the thread and it's language is turning from reasonably informative debate to something less civilised I'll leave you to it. You'll be pleased to hear I'll be without internet access for some time now in any case!

crusader to be fair a thread is significantly more likely to become less civilised if a poster (you, in this case) deliberately and insistently rehashes a deleted post to intrude on another's privacy, accuses another of being a sock puppet, in effect identifies a member of staff in a potentially defamatory way and infers that all those taking only three A levels have 'mental health problems'. Anyhow, given that our children were in the same school year and that mine only took three, I'd expect you to know that not to be true.

Very many people are identifiable on MN. I recognise a good number and know a good deal about some of their lives even though they might not be aware (I'm not talking about you here - don't worry!) but I've never revealed details. There are no occasions on which it's ok even when you know they're being a humbug- it's not ok, and it takes a special kind of person to think it is.

I'm still of the view I expressed at the top of the thread - go to whichever school is nearer (or has the easier commute). I strongly suspect she might be heading south now though, fast......

Going back to the Head recruitment issue. I notice that Colyton is stating a salary of £90,000 that may be increased for the right applicant. In North Bucks the best secondary modern pays the Head circa £105,000 and a Grammar School near me pays between £110,000 and £120,000. Two fantastically successful grammar schools have just replaced their Headteachers in Bucks, from within the Bucks Grammar School system. One new Head s going back to the school he taught at some years ago. The pay in Devon looks decidedly low if the mission is to attract the best candidates.

90k is a huge salary for Devon, though, whereas 100-120k is not high for Bucks.

All these salaries seem huge to me, as an academic. A head of a university department managing 80+ staff, 1000+ undergraduates, 200+ PhD students, annual budget of 12-15 million, would rarely get more than 90k and they would be expected to maintain their international research career in addition to running the department! I'm not sure that even a head of a faculty (multiple departments, budget as much as 50-60 million) would get as much as 120k.

The gap between Heads' salaries and those of other teachers has grown substantially over the last few years, as the typical salary for a secondary Head didn't use to be more than that of a university head of department.

I think if you want to get the best in a difficult recruitment field then you need to pay a very good salary. Head teachers for a school like this are gold dust! I specifically quoted salaries for a mid Bucks grammar and a secondary school in mid Bucks. The house prices in these areas are modest if compared with Marlow or Beacknsfield. Mid Bucks compares with Devon. £90k
Is low for this type of job and the governors state they have not got round to reviewing the salary in 4 years of the school being an academy which undoubtedly puts it out of step with other, similar, schools. It also looks a bit unprofessional not to have done that when you know the head is leaving . If you are recruiting from a vanishingly small pool of talent and you cannot recruit , you are best advised to pay what the opposition is paying because you might not ever recruit from Devon.

Most headteachers are actually recruited from within their local area and 90k goes a long way in Devon, Dorset and Somerset. So the first question should be why the school is unable to recruit within the local area. The current deputy head will most probably be retiring in a few years, the school needs a permanent head.

If a spouse wishing to retain a job in London was a genuine issue then the recruitment process has been unprofessional. Remote working has made this less of a problem than it used to be but there are parents who could offer advice if needed on how to best travel to and from London at unsocial hours.

The school might have to offer more than 90k but that does not deal with the underlying problems.

I would normally agree nameshifter but I have also looked at the salaries paid to the Heads of the Grammar schools in Torquay. One is 20% higher and the other is, wait for it, over 50% higher. Does that answer your question? The Deputies are paid very high salaries too, as you might expect. It appears these schools have re-evaluated the salaries of their Headteachers and shifted them upwards, as they are permitted to do as Academies. The fact that Colyton says, in its Recruitment pack, that it has yet to do this after 4 years of being an academy clearly puts it out of kilter with two very similar schools in Devon. I suspect if you looked at the 54 "similar" academic schools that the D of E uses as a benchmark for the school, I have a suspicion that £90k will be on the low side for the published Head's salary. The salaries I have quoted are for 2012/13 as well, not 2015/16!

I think that a spouse in London might be an issue, but they have failed to appoint 3 times. I undeerstand that is what a poster said earlier and that, of course, might be wrong. That cannot be the issue 3 times over, can it?

Also, NHS staff (managers and senior clinicians), senior County Council and District Council staff will paid salaires of the type I mention, even in Devon. You can check that too of course. Schools, these days, benchmark their salaries against similar schools (as listed in the D of E data), local schools, and local "similar" jobs. Salary could be an underlying problem if no Deputy Head wants the job for the few £ more, and local Heads are already paid above the salary quoted, (although the Torquay ones are not likely candidates) and if you cannot attract from another area, then who are the candidates for this job? My DDs prep school paid £75,000 p/a 10 years ago.

Colyton, quite rightly, is seeking excellence from the new Head. If the job is as demanding as Molio asserted earlier, then £90k is not particularly attractive. The recruitment details are also effectively saying that the new excellent candidate has to go in and negotiate a higher salary package which will only be agreed if the appointment panel think the candidate deserves it. Normally the "value" of such a Head is evaluated and determined beforehand (and they have had 4 years) and salary is progressed via performance management - not negotiation on appointment. Looks a bit of a turn off to me.

What do you think the underlying reasons are, nameshifter?

They have failed to appoint twice not 3 times AFAIK. I don't know if it's relevant but head's salaries in Devon (which doesn't include Torbay) have been a hot topic in recent years because of a scandal at a school in Exeter. That may have had some impact on the governors' thinking. The desire to not run a deficit during a time of cuts might be a factor too. Personally I think the head should be paid much more. But I can understand the relevant people wanting to be seen to be not doing the too common thing of a school becoming an academy and the SMT immediately getting a chunk of the new funds through enhanced wages. If that is their rationale (it may easily not be).

HEADS'. I did apostrophise that correctly but my phone had different ideas. Any other typos are down to me.

I do wonder how TBBG justifies the high salary paid there? If Colyton Grammar Academy is having to compete in a difficult recruitment market then they really do have to take account of market forces with regard to pay . That does not mean over pay. It means a proper evaluation, a benchmarking exercise and a review of the market place. I see it was twice but presumably the school now has the Deputy in charge and that often means a steady ship but no dynamic steps forward because everything is on hold for the new Head.

Milly - what would you cut? I can actually think of a whole shopping list of things I'd cut but, again, almost certainly a minority opinion...

The grammar schools in my county are among the lowest funded schools per capita in the Country. Due to the "closing the gap" requirement, our secondary odern schools are getting a bit more money per pupil than the grammar schools. It is very, very difficult here.

Obviously I cannot comment on the expenditure of this individual school, and I do do not know what they have prioritised in their development plan, for example. Schools in my County are operating on less money and paying a higher salary to the Heads so clearly it is possible. One of the schools I quoted above is a C of E Secondary school in the north of the county where a 4 bed detached is easily available under £500,000. It also depends on the value the school places on the Head. As the evaluation of the Head's job has not been done, it is difficult to know what Colyton prioritise because that should be reflected in the evaluation. How do the other schools in Torbay manage? One pays a huge amount more. Schools are not allowed to run deficit budgets by the way. I am sure if you can think of a shopping list, so can the school. Also, frankly, £20-£25,000 is a pretty small slice of the school's budget and lots of schools employ business managers to make money (lots of it) from business activities to bridge gaps like this.

From the 2013 accounts, staff expenditure is 80% of the budget. Teaching staff is just over 60%. By offering a bit more, this will not break the bank or change the value for money benchmarking very much because the revenue budget is circa £4.7m. In addition in 2012/13 the Governors' expenses were circa £13,000. There's one saving to be had immediately!

I meant "modern" schools above of course.

Milly Above a basic level salary is not the only motivation. At this level it may not even be the main motivation for applying for or accepting one job over another.

I'm not sure how old this article is but inflated salaries still seem to be quite rare www.teachingtimes.com/articles/heads-salaries.htm and defended on grounds of additional responsibilities www.exeterexpressandecho.co.uk/Revealed-head-earns-PM/story-15362708-detail/story.html

This blog devonheadships.blogspot.co.uk/ has salaries similar to 90k being offered in Tavistock and Bideford. Tavistock managed to recruit last year. It has less going for it in terms of location and attracted someone from Bristol.

I've said enough about the problems. There are some excellent teachers at Colyton and a capable senior management team. The students are well behaved. There is a supportive school community and what can be a very supportive wider community. Good support staff and well maintained buildings. Opportunity for national exposure for the ambitious. If the governors think this is just about pay recruitment may continue to be ineffective.

The deputy takes over next year. They have their own strengths and I'd hope for more than steady ship.

I totally agree that salary is not the only motivation. Tavistock is a school that Molio thinks is easier to manage than a school such as Colyton. You will see that I disagrred. If the governors believe Tavistock is an easier job, then why have they not evaluated their own job? Surely if they did,they would pay more?

I've never mentioned Tavistock at all. I know nothing about Tavistock, nothing at all. The false premises here are leading to some curious conclusions!

another example where a local school has managed to appoint a headteacher. www.exeterexpressandecho.co.uk/Cathedral-School-Exeter-s-oldest-school-new/story-26812108-detail/story.html Of course this is not really comparable but heads do move long distance sometimes

Devon's school are bursting at the seams www.exeterexpressandecho.co.uk/schools-Exeter-East-Devon/story-26137382-detail/story.html but the numbers applying to Colyton who are in the A group for admissions dropped in the years where data is available on the internet.

Nothing I have put on mumsnet is confidential information, it can all be found by anyone who looks for it.

The governors should be reviewing the direction of the school, the qualities they look for in a headteacher and the way parental complaints are dealt with. They need to consider why the school is less popular with parents. Since this will no doubt provoke more of the vitriolic abuse that has helped put local families off Colyton I'll put this thread on my ignore list.

Exeter cathedral school is a 3-13 private junior/prep school which has boarding. It's also in Exeter. Hardly comparable. Or indeed local.

During the time in which I have been associated with CGS, the numbers taking the admission test have been pretty stable (to within about 50 kids) as far as I'm aware (as you say they do periodically make the info available). I have no idea if all cat A kids have gone on to put the school as first preference. The cat A number has varied a bit, you are right. But it is a fairer system (for the cat A kids) than the one in place some years ago where you found out in January if you had an eligible score but you had no idea what that score was or if you were high enough up the ranking to get a place. At least if you know you are in cat A and the cat A total is lower than the number of places available, you have certainty. If you haven't already out the thread on ignore I'd be interested to know what you mean by the school being 'less popular with parents'. Less popular than what? Which parents? AFAIA the school has never been popular with parents of kids who don't get in. I know one such parent who practically spits bile at my DC when we see them (and sadly we see them quite a bit) ever since their child didn't get in. Although I know another parent whose child sadly didn't get in who has remained lovely. Again, AFAIA, the school is still popular with the parents of my DCs' friends. Although most, being human, might have the odd moan every now and then (current moans include the cost and timing of school trips). I know one parent (very well) who has removed one DC from the school for reasons to do with the DC not the school but who then sent another DC there (and is apparently way happier with that DC's progress than I am with mine - I'm not unhappy, you understand, but I'm not over the moon constantly telling everyone how great everything is happy, in just, you know, fine with it tempered with worry that the wheels might come off at any time).

Why do Devon school threads always go so wrong?

My son is at a different grammar in Devon that has recruited a new head this year. My eldest son's special school had to advertise twice though to get a decent head. Headships can be hard to fill.

OP - I would choose based on things like feel, distance, extracurricular etc rather than obsess about things like results. They're both going to be good - and being happy at the school is undoubtedly more important. I must admit potentially not being able to change easily for 6th form would put me off a bit.

I wouldn't obsess about Oxford/Cambridge either - or the difference between the different colleges (I went to Oxford from a Devon grammar & couldn't give you more than a rough idea of a brainbox versus thick thicky college - nor have I met anyone in RL who would even care).

I have been told that TBGS now has a 3 year GCSE course (as does ds2's school - TBGS was mentioned as another that had made this change to adapt to the new GCSE's). Ds2 is about to go into year 9 & delighted to have been able to give up art/DT/history & geography a year earlier than expected.

Sorry - Tavistock is an exampe of a school that Molio thinks is easier to manage - splitting hairs somewhat!

Milly you're completely misconstruing what I've said in a number of respects, including Tavistock, which I'm extremely happy to say I know nothing about. You're making assumptions on all sorts of false premises which aren't worth countering for that reason. You're coming up with some very perplexing statements about finances which any one who knows the school simply won't recognize - I'm actually really, really puzzled as to why you've developed such an unhealthy obsession with a school which you appear to have no connection with whatsoever. It seems excessively odd!

nameshifter you may not have said anything on here that isn't in the public domain but to my mind naming a particular person in a school and saying that some parents will be happy to see that person leave is plain nasty and mean, whatever you yourself think of the person.

You mention parental complaints. It seems plain as day that you've made a parental complaint and are still unhappy. But I'm not sure that generalizing from your particular issue is fair to other parents, or as many as you suggest. My own DC have hugely enjoyed the three year sixth but clearly any model will have merits and demerits - it's not ever going to be black and white.

I must admit I like the sound of a 3 year KS4. Especially si CE the new style GCSEs may be more challenging and may matter more than GCSEs have done for some years. It might especially be beneficial for kids who might otherwise make sub optimal choices for A levels (because of lack of maturity) too.