Colyton or Torquay Girls?

[Trambuctious]

If all goes very very well on the exam day this will be the choice we need to make. Has anyone had to decide between these 2 schools, and how did you do so? We've been to the 2 open days, and they came across very differently, but were both tempting!

Ah, I see. Of course not everyone considers it the top school (I still persist in thinking my old school in London is THE BEST ONE, for example :D ) - but there is no denying that by the DfE's preferred measure it is top of the pile. Me, I don't necessarily like musch if anything that comes out of the current DfE. But, you play by the rules there are not the rules you would like, right? And you can't blame the teachers and pupils for being proud of what the school has achieved.

I'm not aware that university admissions tutors look with squinty eyes at our 6th formers' results and predictions. I guess I might find that out in the coming months. Of course, the GCSE results must look better in comparison to everyone elses' because they are all taken so early. All my children are summer born so they were/will be even younger comparatively when they did/do them.

Thank you for taking the trouble, Chocolate.

Oops! Sorry - I was reading the thread backwards.

Or rather forwards for a bit then backwards. Randomly anyhow :)

Trambuctious, Do you know what happens if a child wants to sit both the Colyton and Torquay exam? Do they share results or do you have to ask one of the schools for an alternative date?

I'm not sure. Still lots of things to think about, including coming up with a Plan B.

Actually the GCSE results are not considered better because they are taken early. They are just GCSE results. Just like the A level results at Colyton haven't been taken with a pinch of salt because they have been done over 3 years when everyone else has taken 2 years. Their A level results should be stinking with this amount of input! This is very early specialisation and not good for everyone. Not a rounded education in my book.

However, I was interested in the earlier conversation about how Colyton stacks up against other schools. I compared it to my local state girls grammar school, but I am in a fully selective shire county with secondary moderns. Far more children access the grammar schools here and they do have a middle attainers cohort, although it is small. My local girls' grammar school got 17% A* at A level last year.

If you look on the data dashboard for Colyton it is in the 2nd quintile when compared to similar schools for overall GCSE attainment. So you could argue they could do better. When the exams become more difficult, a move to year 11 exams seems a better policy. They are also 2nd quintile for Maths GCSE attainment, so could do better there too. The really interesting statistic is that they are 4th quintile (one off the bottom) for Maths progress. This is pretty poor and suggests they need to rethink what they are doing regarding the teaching of maths to very bright children. Lots of similar state schools are doing it better. What a school says, and what the dashboard says, can be completely different!

Under the previous head, Barry Sindall, Colyton exploited the league tables by making students take qualifications like General Studies, Critical thinking and COPE that give you more points per student and push you up the tables. The students are well behaved, East Devon is a pleasant area to live and the school attracted good teachers. Barry Sindall knew how to keep everyone happy. Its Ofsted reflected that. It attracted parents to move to the area from other parts of Britain and even from abroad. Colyton pupils may now live within its large catchment area but a significant number were not born there. It was a good survival tactic for a small school and it did quite well by its students until it made the strange decision (for financial reasons?) to opt for a 3 year sixth form.

Students tking exams early are less mature so less likely to understand the need to work hard and their brains, and reasoning capacity, are still developing. Grade inflation disguised the effect on pupils results so that the school was able to claim it had no impact. Education experts would disagree. Students then have to make A level choices at a ridiculously early age. Some can not cope with more independent study at 15. Others find they have made poor choices. They either leave to restart A levels elsewhere or try to pick up other subjects alongside their A levels (with or without tutors). Barry Sindall dealt with the problems with more flexibility than Paul Evans. One or two have gone to the sixth form college in Exeter after A level to do an extra A level in a year. The school initially made students do 3 A levels and one AS and the 4 A levels may be partly to counteract a little the effect of early A level choice.

One of Colyton's good points has been that for most subjects it did not prevent weak students from taking an exam. It did not encourage them to drop a subject after AS level or push them off to another school if AS results were poor. When looking at the percentage of A*s elsewhere consider how many students have left/ dropped a subject. There is a real problem with maths at Colyton. The percentage of the sixth form who take maths is lower than you would expect for able young people based on comparable schools. This makes the early selection issue worse since maths is a relevant A level for most university courses.

Universities do not look favourably on early GCSEs or a three year sixth form, hence other schools have not copied an ill-conceived experiment. The existing students (and their parents) did not choose a 3 year sixth form so universities have not generally penalised students for it. The obvious exceptions are its impact on Oxford applications (lower GCSE results for the immature students) and a reduced choice of medical school since Keele really dislikes 3 year A levels.

There are some positives to a 3 year sixth form. Students may be less stressed when taking A levels. They have time to read beyond the curriculum and to undertake extension activities that look good in a personal statement. They ought to achieve better A level results, offsetting the effect of weaker GCSEs. However families with children in more than one school may see those who failed their 11 plus (and attended a fee paying school) achieve better results at A level.

The deputy head is well regarded and some parents will not be sorry to see Paul Evans leave. Unfortunately the school faces a very difficult time as the exam changes will highlight the flaws in the 3 year sixth form.

I dont know Torquay well but personally I would not choose a 3 year sixth form.

Thank you nameshifter, Millymollymama, Thechocolatecrusader and others for the clear and comprehensive explanation re Colyton.

I must confess, for a good many years I’ve been hoaxed scratching my head wondering how Colyton have been able to achieve this so-called “fantastic” league table position as first alerted to it by a certain poster here at MN constantly blowing hot and cold about her DC who were/are at this school. Now, living a million miles away from Colyton myself, I’ve never heard of this school before then. I’m more than convinced that the best state schools in the country have always been around here in north London where I am, the likes of Queen Elizabeth Boys, Henrietta Barnett, the Latymer, St. Michael’s Catholic Girls etc and perhaps some others in and around the outskirts of London.

And so it’s a 3-year Sixth Form course they are doing down at Colyton!

Ha! A 50% head start compared to the rest of the nation and the whole wide world! What kind of a pathetic kiasu school is this? Whilst other sixth form schools globally are doing it in two years and some even one year, Colyton has to take 3 years? Well, one gets a degree in 3 years not a few A-levels.

Imagine some marathon runners given a 9-mile head start at the Olympics Marathon Finals. And the so-called “winners” then come round dangling their “gold medals” in your faces and at the same time preaching for a ‘level playing field’ when it comes to state vs independent education.

What humbug!

And yes, no doubt the useless Extended Project plus Critical Thinking and General Studies nonsense are thrown in to boost the points to climb the league tables. If this is not a pathetic sign of desperation, I don’t know what is. And yet some Colyton parents have the audacity to come round to MN to claim their DC have 6 A-Levels whilst others are struggling with 3 or 4!

I’m just sorry they didn’t add their scout badges to the tally to make it 10 or 12 A-levels.

”The percentage of the sixth form who take maths is lower than you would expect for able young people based on comparable schools. This makes the early selection issue worse since maths is a relevant A level for most university courses. . . . and a reduced choice of medical school since Keele really dislikes 3 year A levels.”

The picture is now crystal clear why Colyton medicine hopefuls are not offering Maths as a crucial A-level subject and are avoiding the UKCAT (that almost 90% of all UK medical schools require) like the plague.

OP, imo Colyton is not all that seems to be. All that glitter there is not gold. On that basis alone I’d just go straight for Torquay Girls. Best of luck to your girl.

If a student gets a place to read medicine at Oxford or Cambridge without taking the UKCAT and then excels and becomes a scholar, without maths, then he's probably quite shrewd. I think the student you're referring to got three offers out of three interviews too while a close friend of his got four out of four. I doubt that was wholly in spite of the school but if it was - all credit!

OP I'd go to whichever school is nearest if there's a marked difference. Social life counts.

peteneras what a strange rant. The school exploited the league tables, yes, but that doesnt mean that it was a bad school. Barry Sindall was an excellent headteacher and attracted good teachers to the school. Some of them are still there. They have a good deputy head taking over who knows how to retain the ones they have and should attract good new teachers. It's a good school, if not as good as league tables suggest. The North London schools have the advantage of a different catchment area with an intake that is more able, the school that stands out to me is Reading.

Some of the students do take large numbers of A levels, usually the ones doing maths and further maths. They do two other A levels and General Studies - that is 5. Most students now do 4 A levels plus General Studies, but again the mathematicians do further maths as well so 6. It's not unusual for able mathematicians to do 4 A levels in any school. There are many medicine applicants without maths and students apply to medical schools where they maximise their chance of a place. For some that may be BMAT schools.

OP school comparisons are difficult. Dont be blinded by league tables. Being close to a school is useful in bad weather or when your child is ill so if both are good go for the closest one.

A strange rant indeed. Quite a lot of bitterness there for some reason?

If someone has a choice of either school they are likely close to neither. So then it comes down to mode of transport - train or bus. The bus is expensive. I imagine the train is too. We were put off by the schlep from the train station to TGGS - it's not far but the road is a bit dodgy. But then the same can be said of the road from the bus stop to Colyton.

Another thing to consider is if your DC are arty rather than sciency. If that is the case TGGS might be a better bet.

Nameshifter I was a bit surprised to see you saying the deputy head is well regarded. She is pretty much invisible to many parents. Some of us actually thought she had left.

” If a student gets a place to read medicine at Oxford or Cambridge without taking the UKCAT and then excels and becomes a scholar, without maths, then he's probably quite shrewd. I think the student you're referring to got three offers out of three interviews too while a close friend of his got four out of four.”

And that’s what I, we, have been told. He’s also the same student who got 4 A-levels(?) but falsely reported as getting 6 A-levels.

Likewise, the very same student who supposedly is studying Medicine at Oxford (6-year course) is in his final year after just 30 months.

All this is fast becoming a joke, I’m afraid.

Yes, nameshifter and Broadchurch, you are forgiven to say that was a strange rant. But I don’t know how long you have been at MN forums, judging from what you’ve just said, I suppose not long, or maybe not long enough. Rest be assured there are loads of people out there who couldn’t wait for a post like mine to be finally published.

And so, are ‘Critical Thinking’ and ‘Extended Project’ A-level subjects recognised by universities across the board to be counted as ‘good currency’ in relation to their conditional offers for any particular degree course? Maybe I’ve just landed from Mars but I’d be most grateful if you could kindly point me to any British university that accepts ‘Critical Thinking’ and/or ‘Extended Project’ as a recognised standalone A-level subject at par with the other traditional academic subjects.

I would even go further to suggest that Mathematics and Further Mathematics (although both are recognised as A-level currency) would not be counted as two different A-levels in many specified degree courses. It’s either one or the other and not both as two different A-levels.

No, I’m not a great fan of league tables. In fact, my son’s school don’t even publish or distribute them unless legally bound. Yes, I read them quickly whenever I bump into them. But ask me 10 minutes later which were the (say) top 5 or top 10, and I would not be able to remember.

But I’m extremely wary of schools, organisations, individuals etc who exploit situations, taking advantage of unfortunate circumstances (vultures) to benefit themselves and to gloat at the end of the day how great or clever they are. There are some Colyton parents who are like that. Whatever Colyton as a school wins unfairly is at the expense of other schools who play by the rule. Colyton MUST surely know this! Thus my previous reference to the marathon runners given a 9-mile head start. Needless to say, an attitude or tendency like that can only (naturally) transmit down to its students and parents alike. And I’ve already seen plenty of evidence of this. No, no matter how good the school may be in other respects, I simply don’t have time for cheats, I’m afraid.

Several cambridge college subject pages for the subject my DD1 wants to read (which isn't medicine) mention the EPQ. One of its possible uses is as the example of written work you have to provide (in addition to written tests, interviews etc) as part of the admissions process. I'm aware of some people (not from Colyton) who have been given offers at british universities for 'traditional subjects' which include EPQ. Not for science subjects. For some kids the whole EPQ thing is very useful and relevant. Maybe not for all. In the context of this thread it's worth noting TGGS mandate EPQ too. There have been lots of threads on EPQs on MN over the years and lots of kids do them. Perhaps not many medics or people with poor writing skills.

This talk of 'cheats' is frankly ludicrous.

A quick read through the CRGS prospectus reveals that all their kids do general studies A level and they also offer critical thinking as an A level (not just AS) subject. No mention of EPQ - but since that as a qualification is better regarded than CS A level I find that slightly surprising. Anyway - the key point is Colyton and TGGS (which both offer roughly the same at A level but do not do CS A level) are doing essentially the same as the other well regarded grammar schools. The only difference is the colyton kids do their GCSEs a year early and for the last few years have got better overall results. That's not cheating - it's handicapping! Since I agree with the PP who expressed the view that some kids might do better at GCSE if they waited a year.

It is clear both of us are writing about a subject matter from a different perspective and completely out of context. I’ve no qualms about people wanting to take the EPQ or Critical Thinking or the St John Ambulance First Aid course for that matter, or whatever that floats their boat. Personally I can give you an insight, for example, into the art of flamenco beginning with the early gypsies from northern India right through the Moorish era into its present form in modern Spain. That doesn’t give me an A-level in flamencology that I can forward to a university as one of 3 (or 4) A-levels that they require for my chosen degree course.

Yes, I am aware several universities mentioned the EPQ and/or Critical Thinking as evidence they’d like to see to evaluate the candidate’s written work or argument. But these universities would, right on the onset tell you EPQ and Critical Thinking are not recognised as an A-level equivalent!

I say, there is a definite and sure way to convince universities of one’s capability in essay writing and sound argumentative reasoning and yet show a solid A-level academic subject by taking subjects like RE, History, Geography to name but a few.

Again, I think you’ve taken my mention of ‘cheats’ out of context. This is not in relation to people taking EPQ and/or Critical Thinking (see first paragraph). I specifically mentioned the 9-mile head start in a marathon race* which is akin to what Colyton is doing by following a 3-year Sixth Form system compared to the rest of the world which do it in two years or even one year.

*marathon: run over more than 26 miles. Olympic winners usually complete the course in just over 2 hours.

Apart from being utterly ludicrous, the talk of cheats is also getting dangerously close to libel Broadchurch, if peteneras is suggesting that students from a named school with a three year sixth form get university offers illegitimately. Everyone knows what the score is so there's no question of cheating. Whether or not tutors pay any attention to the fact that no student taking the 11 or 12 GCSEs is more than fifteen and some are only fourteen is more of a moot point. And the GCSEs probably have more to do with securing an offer than the A Level predictions.

At Oxford the BA in Medical Sciences is taken in the third year, the First BM having been completed in the first and second year. The Second BM is awarded after the three years of clinical training. It would therefore be entirely correct, both linguistically and in fact, to say that a student was in his or her final year in their third year.

I think the student you're referring to was reported accurately as having achieved 6A* at A2. I think it might have been in the paper too I can't quite recall but he's not unique at the school, far from it. And obviously the worse you claim the school to be, the more successful these individual student must be - you can't have it both ways.

I'm not sure where your fan base is peteneras but I would think a good portion of it must be utterly sick to death of your 'strange rants' which are prompted pure and simple by the fact that your own son didn't get a place at Cambridge having applied for medicine despite his grades and despite his Eton education and you can't quite accept the fact that a lot of others did - even from state schools . But really, four or five years on.........

individual students - plural

Broadchurch If CRGS is Colchester Royal they are also exploiting the flaws in the league tables.

Anyway the question of whether the OP has children who are young for their age is important. If you have a very mature 11 year old they may cope with taking A level choices early. If not Colyton is perhaps not a good choice. Some of those with July/August birthdays can still be quite mature, I hope yours are.

The EPQ is a good qualification that helps develop study skills. Universities like it for that reason but don't normally make offers that specify it, unless they are the universities that make offers in terms of UCAS points. Quite a few medics do it. General studies is not totally useless as a few universities do accept it as an A level for some courses.

Many parents had barely heard of Paul Evans before he become headteacher. When you have any contact with the deputy head you'll find out why I said they are well regarded - by pupils, staff, governors and those parents who know the school well.

Peteneras Oxford medics do a first degree after 3 years but 6 years in total, I expect they were talking about finals for the first degree. Or, as some students have thought it fun to post here pretending to be parents, it may be one of them.

Nameshifter I have had contact with the deputy head. I've been a parent for a long time. I think I know the school very well by now, thanks. Although I don't know anyone who isn't very sorry that the head is leaving so we clearly move in different circles.

The talk is about getting extra points by taking Extended Project, Critical Thinking etc and to adopt a 3-year Sixth Form system to have an unfair advantage over the rest of the world that do it in two years or even one year, in order to boost its league table standing and officially publishing these results in public places such as newspapers, the internet, the school’s website etc is MISLEADING.

I WAS MISLEAD for a number of years largely thanks to you, Molio and under your previous name, 'Yellowstone'.

Nobody is talking about university admissions here. Universities admit and don’t admit who they like. Your God may be Oxford and Cambridge, Molio, and at the risk of repeating myself, they are not necessarily my god. Because London, not Oxbridge, is the powerhouse of British universities and that’s where you go especially for Medicine!

Now please save us the explanation about Oxford’s BA Medical Sciences, their First BM, Second BM etc and all that waffle. We all know Oxford does a 6-year medicine course. You are not in the final year after 30 months if you claim to be doing Medicine there. End of story.

That’s what it’s all about, all the waffle, wool pulling over your eyes etc designed to mislead!

Nameshifter, maybe you were not aware, but the '30-month Final Year' at Oxford claim by Molio was specifically written on a thread all about Medicine.

And you can let your imagination run as wild as you want (was it after 4 or 5 years?) but I don’t have to tell you how my son is enjoying his London school or what he’s achieving there. Just so that you know, not all Etonians go to your temple, Oxbridge - 70 percent don’t - and that doesn’t stop them from having a fantastic time here and abroad.

For the love of goodness, give it a rest, peteneras. What on earth does any of this matter to anyone outside a tiny circle of parents in Devon?

As for your endless nitpicking pursuit of Molio, I'm sure I'm not the only person who finds it utterly baffling. Give it a rest. You both have exceptionally able children. Well done. They are not in competition.

suppresses awful thought of what might happen if they ever compete for a registrar or consultant's post in a few years' time

I don't understand. The website makes it very clear that the school has a 3 year 6th form. The powers that be, rightly or wrongly, think that is a selling point. All the other grammar schools - and many comps - also do the EPQ and the AQA Bacc (which requires CT and GS). They get those points too. The top range of the league tables is matching like for like. The only difference between them is the 3 years 2 years thing. That might confer an advantage but it is surely matched by the disadvantage of the early GCSEs which another poster has pointed out. It's actually the GCSE table that colyton is top of, not the A level table.

I don't have a problem with someone saying London is better than cambridge (I definitely don't have a problem with someone saying it's better than Oxford ;) ) although obviously those pesky league tables have it different but if you think that then why apply to cambridge at all given the hoop jumping it entails? Having said that my DD may apply to places in both (London and cambridge) and really hasn't made up her mind which she prefers.

I don't know much about Oxford and its funny ways but if people there commonly call people taking their exams to be awarded a BA finalists then it's not really for anyone who isn't there and doesn't know the funny ways to tell them they are wrong, surely?