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Secondary education

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Top sets maths: is this all they learn?

71 replies

Saskia1234 · 24/06/2015 12:34

We came to the UK in 2008 (from Holland) and our children are attending a lovely state primary school here, they are thriving there and are both very happy. Ds is currently in year 5 so we are looking at secondary schools now, and trying to understand the British school system which seems so incredibly complicated that after months of reading about it and talking to people I still find it hard to understand how it all works!

One thing that really concerns me is that it seems that children, even those in top sets, don't learn an awful lot in maths in the 5 years running up to GCSEs. Dh and I looked at GCSE past papers (higher tier) and we both agreed that this was stuff that we used to do two or even three years earlier in our secondary school. When we looked at A level past papers however, the level was really good, comparable to what we did (but then, children in Holland take 7 A levels instead of 3).

I've read many posts here on mn and elsewhere from parents saying their kids are bored to death in maths lessons, not learning anything new in the first two years - something we never experienced at school ourselves, and we were both good at maths (dh became a mathematician).

My question is: do schools teach only what is 'necessary' for GCSE, or do they teach beyond this, at least to the top sets, and start with harder stuff sooner to prepare those who might want to do A level maths? I understand sometimes they enter children a year early for the exam, but how often does this happen, and is it just as normal in comprehensives as in grammars or private schools?

OP posts:
WhattodowithMum · 25/06/2015 21:45

Saskia It might be worth you and your husband going to a Bancroft's open day. It will give you a bench mark. They also hand out past papers which will give you real insight. Also Bancrofts offers up to 50% scholarships, as do Chigwell and Forest. I particularly mention Bancrofts because they are the most academic of the three and there entrance exam has not one but two maths papers. One to check that the children are competent at the basics and one to stretch the more able and to allow the gifted students to show their flair for maths.

WhattodowithMum · 25/06/2015 21:47

There=their

EmberRose · 26/06/2015 06:46

Going back a couple of posts, someone mentioned that their child hadn't done any trig, but the father had taught her some. Surely this is catch 22 as now when she does it in class, she will already know it and therefore be bored. I think there is something to be said about not excellerating through the curriculum but embedding problem solving, enriching with real life tasks- nrich is a fantastic website for this.

AChickenCalledKorma · 26/06/2015 09:06

EmberRose that was me, and you raise an interesting point. Taken at face value, I agree that accelerating ahead ought to be a recipe for boredom while classmates catch up. But that's not been our experience.

For us, maths at home is quite different from maths at school. We're not doing maths lessons every night or anything! When DH does maths with DD1, they do it because they are both finding it fun. He is delighted to have someone in the house who "gets" that doing tricky maths can be fun. She enjoys the maths, and also the one-to-one attention.

I guess when they do the same thing at school, several months will have passed and she may get a moment of thinking "oh yeah, dad showed me something about this", but she still needs to work at it and master the concepts for herself.

Also, she thoroughly enjoys competing with the other maths geeks in her class, so possibly they are just all quite good at finding ways to stretch their brains by doing things faster/better/in other ways.

Cloud2 · 26/06/2015 11:02

That sweets problem in GCSE is really simple, anyone who has fully understood how to caculate the probability should get it straight away.

Here is the second problem with math education here, not enough practice. Not only the practice will help students really understand the concept, but also help them to do it fast. Math is not like other subject,With the same concept, there are always different ways to set up a question. Every time you do a math question, you have to find ways to solve a problem. I think this really helps students improving their think ability.

Saskia1234 · 26/06/2015 11:11

Thanks whattodowithmum, yes I think we'll go to Bancrofts and try to find out more about their maths curriculum etc, I have no doubt it will be pretty good there from what I have heard.
It's encouraging to hear that at least some of you/your kids were stretched in comps and not bored all the time, so I guess it all boils down to picking the right school. Looking back to my own education, choosing a school really seemed like a picknick in the park: all schools were pretty much the same (no private schools or grammars), there was rigourous streaming from yr 8/9 (but still the possibility to move up or down a stream), and each stream used its own set of textbooks, appropriate for the level. The textbooks were so good that even if you had a bad teacher, you wouln't be hugely disadvantaged because you could always fall back on the books.
That said, dh might not have chosen to study mathematics if he hadn't had the most fantastic maths theacher (dh went to school in Poland and Russia by the way), who would alongside their normal homework give them one really challenging question (just before the weekend) they would most likely not be able to solve. Then the kids would discuss it with each other over the weekend, phoning each other up late at night, until one of them knew how to solve it and they had 'beaten' their teacher! :-)

OP posts:
Saskia1234 · 26/06/2015 11:18

Cloud2 I agree, at least from what I have seen at dc's primary there is by far not enough math practice for all the children to become 'fluent' in what they do.

OP posts:
WhoreGasm · 26/06/2015 12:35

DD is at a grammar. The top maths sets there do an additional Maths GCSE exam alongside the regular Maths exam.

This is necessary because most of the girls in the top sets already had Level 6 Maths when they finished primary school. Level 6 is a rough equivalent to a D at Maths GCSE, I think?

It would madness and incredibly dull to keep these girls churning through the standard Maths curriculum for years when they're easily capable of getting an A* at Maths GCSE when they're still in Yr 8 or Yr 9.

To keep them challenged and interested the top sets compete on a county and national level in various maths and statistics competitions etc.

WhoreGasm · 26/06/2015 12:45

Forgot to mention, her school has as specialist maths group too, by invitation only. They do 'fun' stuff which makes your eyes bleed but the girls genuinely enjoy it.

Maths is unlike any other subject really. The scale of ability and differentiation is so vast.

UKsounding · 26/06/2015 17:51

saskia the complication is that one child's 'not enough to be fluent' is another child's 'beaten to death through repetition. I have a DD who just 'gets' any mathematical concept as soon as she is exposed to it. Boring excessive practice for her is doing something twice. I assumed that she was lazy and couldn't be bothered working at school but she has just scored 100% on a standardized math test designed for 14-15 year olds, and she turned 10 a few weeks ago. Apparently complaints of boredom were not bad attitude on her part. Bad mummy of the year award to me.... While she may be an extreme case, there is a wide variety of repetition needs in every classroom.

mumsneedwine · 26/06/2015 20:01

I am very impressed that 10 year olds can do GCSE questions in their heads. I'm also impressed that primary kids are getting As on O Levels. But who has taught them the necessary concepts ? Because they can't just know how to do a lot of them - somehow they have been told how. It is impossible to understand vectors and how to measure a gradient to a curve unless you know the rules. I agree that the sweets question is actually easy when you know how. But it was question 2 so one of the easier ones. If you have 10 year olds who can do calculus and understand integration and differentiation then I salute you.

mumsneedwine · 26/06/2015 20:05

This is from the FSMQ (taken by about 40% of top sets around the country). Does this challenge the kids ? As a maths teacher I am genuinely interested.
14 A curve has equation y = 4x3 – 5x2 + 1 and passes through the point A(1, 0).
(i) Find the equation of the normal to the curve at A. [5]

(ii) This normal also cuts the curve in two other points, B and C. Show that the x-coordinates of the three points where the normal cuts the curve are given by the equation 8x3 – 10x2 + x + 1 = 0.

[2] (iii) Show that the point B ????2 , 4???? satisfies the normal and the curve. [2] (iv) Find the coordinates of C.

WhoreGasm · 26/06/2015 20:14

I agree that even really gifted children will need to be shown certain mathematical methods. But they will only need to be shown once, and very quickly. And from that they can extrapolate further methods very quickly.

Some children just get maths as easily as breathing and they don't even really understand how they're doing it. DD sat the Level 6 Maths paper. Finished it in half the time and declared it 'dead easy'. It's not something she can really even take any credit for. It's like some people are born with perfect pitch. It's just there in them.

spinoa · 26/06/2015 20:24

I'm not really sure what the point of asking about the FSMQ question is. This question is quite straightforward for bright top set students if the relevant material has been taught yet FSMQ is clearly not intended for the vast majority of year 11 students so indeed the question would be hard for many.

When I was an undergraduate none of my contemporaries doing maths had felt challenged by school maths. My current undergraduates (who enter with high grades in maths) also didn't find school maths challenging. Yet both twenty years ago and now some students who found GCSE easy would find AS/FSMQ very difficult, some students who found AS/A level easy would find degree level maths very difficult etc etc. So FSMQ/AS/A2 are challenging for some students who had previously gotten very high grades in maths.

Note that kids in primary schools are sometimes taught concepts relevant to calculus when preparing for level 6. For example (at least in my local prep schools) they get taught gradients for straight lines and as an extension are asked to explore gradients for quadratics and cubics. I would agree however that it would be surprising for a child to be able to do a whole O level paper without having been taught O level material.

mumsneedwine · 26/06/2015 20:30

What I was trying to I understand was the people saying their kids just 'get maths'. To get it, someone has to teach it. So is the school doing a great job in stretching or are parents doing it at home ? I am really interested as we have 60 students a year that sit FSMQ so not unusual, but most find it very hard. I just thought that if the kids were finding GCSE easy at 10 some of them might like to try the next level up. I try and stretch and challenge my students - my top set are all level 8 in year 8, which is equivalent to a B. But if lots of people tells their kids can go further I could try and introduce concepts such as this earlier. I'm all for maths geeks - bring one myself

mumsneedwine · 26/06/2015 20:30

PS I can't spell on phone !!

mumsneedwine · 26/06/2015 20:37

PPS. I really should be marking year 10 exams, but because it's Friday I will solve Hannah's sweets. Because I've had a few messages about it !
So : chance of one orange = 6/n
Chance of 2nd orange = 5/n-1. As its a dependent probability you multiply these together. So 30/n2-n. We know this = 1/3. So therefore 30/n2-n=1/3. We then have to multiply out. So : 90=n2-n. So therefore n2-n-90=0.
And that took me ages on my phone so hope it's useful to someone.

Mathematician · 26/06/2015 21:05

mumneedswine thank you for engaging. The trouble with acceleration as a solution for good mathematicians is that it doesn't get you harder concepts, just different ones. No, nothing in that FSMQ question was challenging: if you know what the words mean, it's trivial. That's what those of us whose kids just get maths mean, I think: you give them definitions of words like "normal", and they can immediately run with them, and do things adults wouldn't necessarily think of. I'm sure there's a group of kids who are well served by your FSMQ, so good on you for offering it. However, I think the group of children at the next level up who aren't going to be helped by that is bigger than we tend to think - precisely because they tend to be invisible unless they get exposed to advanced concepts, in which case people think "they've been taught, it doesn't count"!

I was a child who never encountered any maths that was hard for me till Cambridge (and then the learning that it was OK for maths to be hard took a while!). What I needed at school, and didn't get, was not acceleration but genuinely hard problems. They're much more easily available these days, thanks to UKMT and similar organisations, and especially thanks to the Web.

mumsneedwine · 26/06/2015 22:21

It's all interesting for me. I am a maths teacher as well as being the mother of one Cambridge maths graduate and one undergraduate. I want to provide the maths education that engages the kids - whether it's exam related or not. My kids never said they were bored at school and they find maths fun - my eldest has a first and is now doing a PhD at Cambridge in some mathematical concept I can't even spell. I am really interested in other peoples experiences as it helps me target lessons

Dustylaw · 27/06/2015 00:02

saskia1234, you have misunderstood A levels compared to the diploma system in the Netherlands. Both are the preparation for university entrance but just because the diploma in the Netherlands covers 7 subjects doesn't mean it is equivalent to 7 A levels. To say that it is would be silly.

pollyisnotputtingthekettleon · 27/06/2015 21:41

I found my book

Top sets maths: is this all they learn?
Top sets maths: is this all they learn?
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