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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Top sets maths: is this all they learn?

71 replies

Saskia1234 · 24/06/2015 12:34

We came to the UK in 2008 (from Holland) and our children are attending a lovely state primary school here, they are thriving there and are both very happy. Ds is currently in year 5 so we are looking at secondary schools now, and trying to understand the British school system which seems so incredibly complicated that after months of reading about it and talking to people I still find it hard to understand how it all works!

One thing that really concerns me is that it seems that children, even those in top sets, don't learn an awful lot in maths in the 5 years running up to GCSEs. Dh and I looked at GCSE past papers (higher tier) and we both agreed that this was stuff that we used to do two or even three years earlier in our secondary school. When we looked at A level past papers however, the level was really good, comparable to what we did (but then, children in Holland take 7 A levels instead of 3).

I've read many posts here on mn and elsewhere from parents saying their kids are bored to death in maths lessons, not learning anything new in the first two years - something we never experienced at school ourselves, and we were both good at maths (dh became a mathematician).

My question is: do schools teach only what is 'necessary' for GCSE, or do they teach beyond this, at least to the top sets, and start with harder stuff sooner to prepare those who might want to do A level maths? I understand sometimes they enter children a year early for the exam, but how often does this happen, and is it just as normal in comprehensives as in grammars or private schools?

OP posts:
starfish4 · 25/06/2015 10:02

If you have a bright DC who you think may not be challenged in maths (and maybe in other subjects) at a comprehensive, are you applying to a grammar school?

My DD is about middle of her top maths set and has struggled understanding some of the maths this year (she's not the only one). She goes to a comprehensive which is very highly thought of and gets higher than average results.

3legsgood · 25/06/2015 10:03

My DD is at grammar in Yr8. There are 4 maths sets (ability groups). Apparently the top set do GCSE level work. I'm not sure what they'll be doing next year!

Eversobusyeveryday · 25/06/2015 10:10

And there was me thinking top set year 7 maths was quite hard, it's beyond me so I'm going to be easily impressed with GCSE

OhYouBadBadKitten · 25/06/2015 10:13

Many areas don't have a grammar school. Mine doesn't.

thehumanjam · 25/06/2015 10:14

I was at primary school in the early 1980s and the Maths that we were taught in year 6 was at a similar level to the Maths that my son was taught in year 3/4 and I was top set for Maths. So where did it all go wrong? They are challenged in primary school, do they just coast at secondary?

AFrogFace · 25/06/2015 10:18

Just as there seem to be lots of experienced people here - dd2 attends our local comp. Leafy catchment, quite high attaining, blah blah. We got her end of term report on Monday and she got an 8b on her Maths SAT.

She cheerfully told me that was about the equivalent of a B at GCSE. She isn't in the top Maths set - do you think she should be or are there likely to be 30 children scoring 8a+ at the end of year 9?

FWIW, I think her maths has been pretty hard since about year 5, and I have a sociology degree, so do have some skills in stats etc!

LooseAtTheSeams · 25/06/2015 10:24

Maybe part of the problem is a fixation on maths results at GCSE - obviously if students can do more, they should be doing more than the syllabus. To be brutally honest, the majority of students won't be in that category. In other subjects you would expect to do more outside of the classroom anyway if you like the subject - someone who loves literature doesn't just read the set books, kids who like computers spend hours programming outside of school. Music and drama fans do loads outside school. So maybe part of the problem is a kind of cultural phobia about doing maths for interest rather than exams? Schools are also wrestling with a national shortage of specialist maths teachers.

LooseAtTheSeams · 25/06/2015 10:30

aFrogFace I think your DD should be in the top set! But at our comp they have two top sets and two second sets and the headmaster says that the standard is the same in both - he just hasn't got space to put all of them in the top set! I think it slows down a lot from sets 3 to 5 and these groups are smaller because they need more help.
Primary maths is pretty good - I think if you can do well to year 6, you should find secondary maths straightforward. The problems come when there are gaps in understanding, though, and these need additional support at secondary or the whole subject becomes very difficult. There are kids at grammar school who still have tutoring in maths just to make sure they don't get left behind, for example.

AFrogFace · 25/06/2015 11:05

Wow LooseAtTheSeams! How big is your school?

I am just wondering about dd2 really. She is obviously doing well in set 2, so unless there are other benefits to being in top set, then she may as well stay as she is. Unless, of course, the rest of her set aren't at the same standard and she might be missing out on being challenged. Hmm. The top set according to dd2 are about 80% boys, whereas her set is more of an even gender split, which she prefers. I am trying to reign in my sociology head on this lol!

Saskia1234 · 25/06/2015 11:19

Thank you all for your post, it's been really helpful! So, am I right that A levels are going to be harder and at the same time 4 A levels will be the norm? That sounds pretty ambitious - but nothing wrong with that! :-)

Yes, ds is going to try for the grammar school, but I don't think he'll stand a chance. We're in Redbridge and apparently the 11+ here is one of the hardest in the country, and competition is fierce with lots of kids being tutored from yr2. Ds is born in August so very young, and although he's in the top set in maths right now I certainly don't think he's a maths prodigy!

If it would make a huge difference, we would consider to go private as there are some good private schools around, but we'd really try to avoid it if we possibly can. I guess I started to panick about maths in comps when I saw an episode of Educating Essex, where they filmed a yr11 top set maths lesson in an outstanding school. The poor teacher was trying to convince the kids it was really time that by now they would be able to calculate the area of a circle, and some of them apparently never heard of pi before!!

OP posts:
LooseAtTheSeams · 25/06/2015 12:04

aFrogFace it is above average size for a comp and it's all boys. Saying nothing about gender stereotypes but that does seem to have something to do with the maths bias! Also the primaries around here have a lot of kids getting level 5 in maths so the school has a good intake (not a grammar school area as well).

Cloud2 · 25/06/2015 12:43

I read an article in BBC a while ago, it is talking about how hard is the English GCSE, obviously it is much easier than some country. But the reason behind it is GCSE is taken by most of the student in England, but in other country, there are only probably 30% taken the exam.I think this may be the reason.

There are should be 2 Math GCSE, one is for normal students who will not want to learn math, science and engineering etc. Then other Math for students who is going to take a career which involves math.

DH teacher at a Russell University for Engineering, he said also students all come in with A/A* Math, some just don't have the math foundation to take his subject.

PiqueABoo · 25/06/2015 13:23

DD is in a Y7 top set at Middling State Secondary and has been doing basic trig (she was wandering around mumbling SOH-CAH-TOA a while ago).

They've almost covered the old KS3 curriculum and have done a couple of new curriculum 'extras', so next year will be interesting: will it get repetitive or will they throw more interesting stuff at them?

DorothyL · 25/06/2015 13:46

Dd is in top set year 9 maths in a top performing state selective school and did trig for the first time halfway through the year.

Her sister in year 7 certainly hasn't covered trig yet - and this is a school who regularly enters students for maths competitions etc

SecretSquirrels · 25/06/2015 14:06

It is true that Maths at secondary school does not challenge the most able. As all pupils have to take maths the emphasis is often on getting the C grade for the middle ability rather than aiming for the A* grade. This means some able students are not even taught the more difficult topics.
Having said that it's still possible to do well. DS1 went to a comp that was in special measures. He was bored in maths throughout the GCSE years. No FSMQ or Maths challenges. A level (at a sixth form college) started to stretch him more and he is now doing a Maths degree at a top university.
As noblegiraffe says, the new curriculum is supposed to be tougher.

mummytime · 25/06/2015 14:09

There is also the fact that you can choose to teach children lots of Maths techniques or teach then fewer methods but to really understand Maths.

For the first you teach them how to do Maths like following a recipe. For the second you can spend ages really exploring all the concepts and ways of solving eg. 7x6 (multiple addition, rectangles, multiplication, making it "easier" and adjusting etc.). My DH once spent some weeks proving 1+1=2, and he was paid for that.

If students really understand Maths they will find higher level maths much much easier, and be able to pick up other topics quickly.

noblegiraffe · 25/06/2015 14:19

My DH once spent some weeks proving 1+1=2

Why?! Russell and Whitehead proved that in 1910!

mummytime · 25/06/2015 14:25

" My DH once spent some weeks proving 1+1=2

Why?! Russell and Whitehead proved that in 1910!"

It was a bit more complex than that - and had national security implications, he even got paid for it!

mumsneedwine · 25/06/2015 19:07

Did no one fancy doing Hannah's sweets question ? It made the news as kids thought it (& a few other questions) were really hard. Trig is level 8 work so taught in top sets year 8 and the rest in 9/10. Areas etc is Level 6, so primary/ ks3, depending. Maths is the easiest subject to differentiate for as a teacher. GCSE stuff normally started in year 9 for bright kids, even if not formally announced, so they can also do the FSMQ or Stats. The FSMQ is hard and stretches the most able maths geeks. And I say this as a mum of a Cambridge maths graduate (from a comp). He was never bored.

pollyisnotputtingthekettleon · 25/06/2015 20:07

Is n 10?

spinoa · 25/06/2015 20:12

I don't really get why the sweets question was considered to be hard: I've seen harder probability questions on Common Entrance papers aimed for 11/13 year olds.

As a Cambridge maths graduate myself I would say I was bored in maths throughout school until I came to STEP papers. I am genuinely surprised that FSMQ would be considered stretching for a Cambridge mathematician as this isn't what I hear from my (university) maths students.

Cretaceous · 25/06/2015 20:29

Spinoa, I agree re the sweets question. I think the furore says more about how social media is driving news stories than anything about the maths! (In fairness, some of the tweets were very funny.)

My DS and his friends, who are admittedly good at maths, all thought the question was fine. Didn't the question even give you the answer you had to work towards? Grin

mummytime · 25/06/2015 20:49

The sweets question was fine - but very difficult in an exam setting. On a first read through it read like an impossible question (Fred has Red socks, George has blue ones, what colour is Hannah's dress).
The problem with it was there was no question like it in the practice material, and in the panic of exams it was hard to see what they were getting at. Also students don't have much time.

So fine if you are an obvious Maths geek, but lots of students are GCSE A* material but still feel nervous. Also lots of great mathematicians do not think fast, so if they didn't see how to approach it immediately they might not have time to work it out.

spinoa · 25/06/2015 21:11

I agree that social media seems to be driving news stories, not just this one.

It used to be normal for a few questions to be a bit different from those in earlier exams. There wasn't a culture of students practising endlessly and learning almost by rote the method required for any given question. This is part of what is wrong with GCSE/A level maths at the moment, and what the point of STEP and MAT is - to make students answer questions which look different to anything they have seen before.

The answer to this question is the probability of the first one being that colour x the probability of the second sweet also being that colour = 1/3, i.e. 6/n x 5/(n-1) = 1/3. Any student who deserves an A should really be able to do this but even if they couldn't one single question wouldn't cost them an A. Surely an A* should mean that you can apply concepts to slightly different problems than you have seen before?

One of my DCs is several years away from GCSE and could do it in their head (albeit not under exam conditions) and DC's classmates could also do it with no problems.

ErrolTheDragon · 25/06/2015 21:16

Yes mummytime. My DD realised what it was on the bus on the way home (before it had gone viral). She said she'd have got it easily if it had been on the FM paper ... seems to have been thrown by having to actually think at that particular point in the GCSE paper. HmmGrin

Just for fun she did an O-level maths paper earlier this week. Obviously some of the content was different and she didn't notice that you weren't meant to do all of the questions, but she did fine, and concluded that it was generally harder questions than GCSE, and would be harder to get a pass in but that (because of the grade boundaries) an A wouldn't be harder to get than an A* GCSE.

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