Fuming - no guidance for Yr 12s at all

[BrendaBlackhead]

Ds attends a large sixth form college. He is doing extremely well academically, but with regard to the future he is on his own.

I was looking at a few public school websites and their pupils are entering essay competitions, olympiads, following a recommended reading programme etc etc and I saw on one that the school will arrange suitable work experience for all med and vetmed applicants. Plus of course people from Oxbridge/top Russell Group coming to the school.

There was a notice at ds's school that those wishing to apply to top tier universities could join a group. Ds's tutor confused it with Sutton Trust and said it was only for low-income/those with non-university parents, when in fact it turned out it was for all students. This was a completely self-selecting group and no one, however able, was targeted. If Gail Trimble/Ted Loveday were at the college no one would have mentioned it to them.

Ds's friends have arranged their own open day visits and summer courses. Ds who is extremely backward in coming forward has said he wants to opt out of the whole thing.

I know that higher education is supposed to be all about self-motivation blah de blah, but when I see that other schools are guiding, smoothing, facilitating their students' paths, I feel really cross on behalf of ds. The History Boys it ain't.

Then I had a look at Bedfordshire University and saw English Literature BA.

which is 46th in the Guardian league tables (above, as random examples, Kings College London and Hull, both well established traditional universities). I would place money that a significant proportion of its students are at least one of tied to the area, mature, have non-standard entry qualifications or are part time, and that it compares favourably with, say, an OU English degree. I would suspect that a lot of its graduates go on to do PGCEs, too.

At Leeds Metropolitan University 97 courses including architecture, law and English literature, need just 80 points for admission, the equivalent of two E grades, according to the Sunday Telegraph.

I wonder how these graduates fare career-wise.

Needing 2 Es and getting 2 Es are two different things.

May I say my own daughter got into a uni in leicestershire ( cough, splut don't want to reveal anymore!) The course was supposedly 280 ucas points that was her offer. She got in, great you would think. My Child did not bother to go to school to collect her A level results on results day as she thought horray I got in, must have got the grades. Then shock horror came 6 months later when her actual A levels certificate came through the door!! She got CDEE!! Even I was gobsmacked. This was 3 years ago she is now graduating with a 2:1 target.
She is my daughter I love her to bits, but even I and DH wonder did my child have something miraculous happen to her brain or is it the university. I use to get a headache reading her essays her writing was terrible. (a bit like mine!)

I really didn't want to reveal too much about my case with dd but I really do sometimes think about whole degree thing. Had dd had gone to collect her results had we noticed her grades I would have said dd don't go girl!! You will struggle. But she is where she is now and I hope she can get a job??

Me and DH wonder wether really she should have done a apprenticeship. My dd wishes she never did the degree as she feels she can't compete with others who have better and reputable degrees from well regarded establishment. It is what it is now. But It does make me wonder about the whole HE system and it being fit for purpose. Please I won't feel offended with discussion about low grades, micky mouse degrees etc. So please carry on. I'm the one who started it and In the fact i don't really agree with uni accepting low grade tariff. My dd re affirms my beliefs.

Brenda, Leeds Beckett (the current name for Leeds Met) for all of those courses want "UCAS Tariff Points: 300 points required. (Minimum 200 from 2 A Levels or equivalent, excluding General Studies)", so that's BB plus stuff, not EE.

According to the Guardian, the average points achieved last year was 314 for architecture, which is BBB+, 272 for Law, so BBC/BCC, and 256 for English, which is about BCC. Undershooting published offers is hardly the mark of Cain, although those are quite substantial undershoots. To average 250+, however, it seems a trifle unlikely they're recruiting a significant number with EE, as they'd be needing a balancing group with 420+ to make the average.

Of course, there may be mature students with access qualifications admitted with EE at A Level or equivalent, but then the same's true for Oxford (although it's rare). But to say that you can routinely get into those courses with EE is simply counterfactual.

I do think the days of EE are behind us but I have been flamed on MN for daring to suggest that some degrees at some universities are a mistake because the employment prospects are poor. On another thread a student is contemplating changing to architecture at a low ranking university for that subject. Given the over supply of architects, is that a wise choice? Surely rates of employment are a key factor. In the same thread, law has been discussed. How many law graduates get to follow this career? These courses are not easy to get onto but can lead to disappointment because there is huge competition in the workplace.

My comment about finance earlier was an illustration of what people say when they are ill informed (or just plain mean) about the cost of university and influence the choices of young people. I do know about university finance, but some people use tuition fees, loans, and the need to top up maintenance loans as a reason to go to the local university, whether that is the best place to go or not. The fact that so many students still complain about the tuition fee hike feeds the problem. Getting the truth across to prospective students is really important and pretending that everything is equal in the world of degrees is just lunacy.

security whats your opinion on unconditional offers given with regards to the lower end universities? There are a lot of courses offering them. How would universities be able to calculate their average grades tariff achieved, with unknown quantities at play?

If you look at the numbers I think it would be a shame if people dismissed low tariff and mid tariff universities. Afterall the majority of students go to mid or lower tariff uni's HERE are the UCAS end of cycle report for 2013. I've attached a screen shot of the numbers of students starting at each of the different types of Uni in 2013

I think if you go to mid or lower tariff universities you need to be clever about where you go and what you study but to dismiss them out of hand is wrong.

I also think there should be places for student with poor A'levels. Some students just need a bit more time to get their acts together and to mature than others. I don't think they should be written off completely. I very much hope that there are EE students out there who go on to get first class degrees. Good luck to them.

whats your opinion on unconditional offers given with regards to the lower end universities?

Well, my RG university is giving unconditional offers, although not in my department. Are low end universities doing it? And what grades are the recipients getting? The reason RG universities do it is to try to tempt applicants to firm who would otherwise use them as insurance for Oxbridge or UCL/LSE/etc, so they tend to go on to get very high grades. How are lower tariff universities using them?

How would universities be able to calculate their average grades tariff achieved

By adding up the grades and dividing by the number of students? It's a retrospective measure.

I think it is a ridiculous and unsustainable expectation for such a high percentage of school leavers to go on to uni.
Fewer places and decent funding is the way forward!

typos wow that table has really opened my eyes. There are a lot of people on the lower end! What tariff is regarded as lower end?. I agree with you that students would have to be clever with the lower end tariff with what course they choose. I wish my dd had better career advice and not end up like she is now applied for 30 graduate job resulting in 1 interview is so disheartening. She thinks in hindsight, she would have been better re sitting/ repeating a year in order to get to a higher rank uni or to have left it later in life. Coming from a lower rank uni she feels she has to do a hell of a lot more convincing the employers then her counterpart's at higher rank uni's. I'm not suggesting writing students with low grades off going to uni, but maybe there should be more foundation type courses available to bridge the gaps they will have.
security at my dd uni ( low ranking) the course she is doing they have been giving out unconditional to student with AS grades CCC they have been having problems getting enough bums on seats. Plus they have high rates of drop outs in 1st year. DD has been a student ambassador for the uni ringing up potential students few months ago who had been given offers.

I spent ages looking at UCAS report ETT probably took her table from & I still can't find the thresholds for higher-medium-lower. I think Higher is ABB or better.

Me neither ragged can't find definitions of these tariffs is well buried deep, the thing is 168 odd pages long?? So guestimate lower tariff is BCC

Mmm, I'm trying to find out similar info but am not getting anywhere. The original ranking seems to be based on a study in 2009. INFO HERE. There are six catagories based on the UCAS points tariff of their students. The top group are the 'highest tariff universities'.
I can't see if these categories have been updated since. - (A lots happened since 2009 )

Watching this with interest as my DC is in Year 12 and has done nothing yet about uni. He is a top independent school, and the school have advised the DC to concentrate on the AS levels before seriously looking at course and unis. The info relating to courses etc will be in the website or available from many other sources. A burning question can be emailed to the relevant person. The sessions at the open days will be sales talks. Nothing to stop anyone from going to a city/campus walking around getting a feel for the place.

That's reassuring, MrsUltracrepidarian. From what people have said on here and elsewhere the open days sound like complete bunfights. We have visited a few places on weekend breaks etc and casually had a quick look at the universities. I know that location/looks are only a part of the equation but it enables someone to junk somewhere that they really feel is not them (that would be Sussex - ds is not a Brighton hipster!).

Thanks for this thread, OP. I was wondering the same thing. My DS is in year 12 and his sixth form have told them nothing about the wonderful outreach programmes uni's offer. I only knew about Sutton Trust and UNIQ due to mumsnet. DS & I had never heard of Villiers but, when I looked at their website after reading this thread, I found that his sixth form is part of the programme. The course this summer that he'd be interested in had an application date of end of March so it's too late. DS told me his girlfriend (at the same sixth form) found out about an outreach programme at a nearby uni thanks to a friend. The sixth form never even mentioned it. She was accepted and it's really encouraged her to consider the course there since she's enjoyed attending the courses and the support from it. It all makes me very annoyed that the sixth form makes no attempt to advise the students about outreach programmes or taster days. His friends have the same experience so I know it's not just DS tuning out (he wouldn't anyway since he's hoping to go to uni). Open days are widely advertised on university websites so I can understand leaving the students to it on that side of things, but the sixth form should at least provide them with a list of programmes like Villiers so they're aware they exist. I thought the idea of these programmes was to encourage kids with less wealthy backgrounds to experience university level teaching with an aim to encouraging them to apply. Is there a fear that widely advertising these programmes might mean lots of students apply, reducing the chances of people who've known about them for years so have been able to take advantage of them? Or is that me being cynical.

I actually think it is the schools not informing the students of what is available from university outreach. The students cannot easily find the information and it is the sad state of careers advice in schools which allows this to happen. Be careful about assuming the outreach university is the best one to go to though. Someone expecting good grades, AAB, should have a choice and be advised of the better courses, wherever they are.

I am not against lower ranking universities and some have excellent courses. However, if you are looking at some very competitive careers such as architecture or law, it is better to go to the best university for this subject, not the one up the road if that is ranked near the bottom for the subject.

I agree, Milly. I'd expect the schools to provide the info in the first instance but, given that most don't seem to, I'd hope that the uni's or other organisations would publicise these things. The uni I was talking about is Birmingham though so is a good one. Since it's not at least an hour away, DS wasn't even considering them until his girlfriend started raving about it. He's now looked at the course modules and is impressed. I think the outreach programme was intended to pick up kids like him who wouldn't have even thought about them.

I may work at one of the lower ranked Unis... one lecturer (his dept. has first place for research impact in 2014 REF) was telling me they tried to do outreach to local 6th form who said "Don't bother, you're not RG."

The nearest RG Uni is almost 2 hours drive away, and do you think they can be bothered for this particular poxy 6th form? I think not. I hate the RG brand.