Fuming - no guidance for Yr 12s at all

[BrendaBlackhead]

Ds attends a large sixth form college. He is doing extremely well academically, but with regard to the future he is on his own.

I was looking at a few public school websites and their pupils are entering essay competitions, olympiads, following a recommended reading programme etc etc and I saw on one that the school will arrange suitable work experience for all med and vetmed applicants. Plus of course people from Oxbridge/top Russell Group coming to the school.

There was a notice at ds's school that those wishing to apply to top tier universities could join a group. Ds's tutor confused it with Sutton Trust and said it was only for low-income/those with non-university parents, when in fact it turned out it was for all students. This was a completely self-selecting group and no one, however able, was targeted. If Gail Trimble/Ted Loveday were at the college no one would have mentioned it to them.

Ds's friends have arranged their own open day visits and summer courses. Ds who is extremely backward in coming forward has said he wants to opt out of the whole thing.

I know that higher education is supposed to be all about self-motivation blah de blah, but when I see that other schools are guiding, smoothing, facilitating their students' paths, I feel really cross on behalf of ds. The History Boys it ain't.

In your sister's case, was it "A level relevant to the degree, BTEC as the other qualifications to make up three A Levels?"

No, her A level was completely unrelated to her degree (the A level was in History). She now does comparative literature.

There's a huge amount of misunderstanding about UCAS points from parents, aided and abetted by some schools. Most selective universities don't use UCAS points at all. Even those that do, say things like "XXX UCAS points from 3 A Levels".

Yes, and this is really bad, but surely at least some of the onus should be on parents and children to look up what requirements the university they want to attend actually has? That's what I remember doing. Did A levels in 2008, so maybe it's massively changed now.

Millie I think you will get flamed for saying that but I do agree with you to an extent.

I think it's terrible that social background prevents some bright, able students from being able to attend university because they haven't achieved the necessary grades or encouragement. Growing up as I did in a highly deprived area, that's something I saw with my own eyes on a daily basis, although I did see many success stories too, as previously mentioned.

However, I do think there is an issue these days with too many people attending university who should not be attending. There should be no shame in not going to university if you are genuinely not academic/don't enjoy academic work (not if you have been held back due to social status etc). Yet schools consistently push university onto all pupils with the result that some are now at university doing completely meaningless degrees that aren't going to be of much use when entering the world of work. Schools push university in this way because for some reason nowadays it is nigh on impossible to get a decent job as a young person without a degree, even for jobs which don't require degrees IMO.

I'll give you an example. I'm a PA, working for a large public sector organisation. I don't earn loads, but I'm 25 years old and on 34k and will be able to work my way up. I'm not ambitious - I do this job because it's fairly easy, fairly low-stress and pays the bills. I have a first class degree and an MA. An undergraduate degree at 2:1 or above was a requirement of getting the role - I would have been turned down without it.

My best friend left school at eighteen because she wasn't academic, went straight to work. She is a PA too. She has a good four years more work experience than I do and yet earns 10 grand less than me simply because I have a degree. She is genuinely better at her job than I am.

Anyway, education is not black and white. There are so many complexities I think it's impossible to really hash out on MN thread without being misunderstood!

but surely at least some of the onus should be on parents and children to look up what requirements the university they want to attend actually has

The usual problem seems to be schools which assume everyone will go to the local post-92, whose advice then serves the students with more ambition very badly. When many places aren't doing UCAS discussions until late in Y12 or sometimes early in Y13, it's harsh to blame students for not researching it in detail in Y11. And if the parents think of more aspirational universities as "not for the likes of us", shouldn't schools attempt to provide a bit of help which the parents can't and the student doesn't even know that they need?

There was an account on MN recently of a school trying to claim that GCSE Health and Social Care was the idea subject for someone thinking of a career in medicine. How many 13 year olds know enough to challenge that?

There was an account on MN recently of a school trying to claim that GCSE Health and Social Care was the idea subject for someone thinking of a career in medicine.

Christ, that's shocking!!!

I don't disagree and the school is absolutely wrong in that case although I think I would have known even at 13 that there was something fishy about that!!

I think that was my anecdote. Completely true: sil is French teacher at a comp and she got hauled over the coals for telling student - who was able - that this was not an appropriate choice. I can see the point if school are trying to be positive with a person they are certain is not doctor material but want to help secure a job in related field - but for their best student? Sil was told that they were not to laud one qualification over another - All Must Be Equal.

With regard to ds - I consider myself reasonably clued up and he isn't daft so he knows what's what to a certain extent. But I don't work in education, I don't have access to courses or have first-hand knowledge about them eg enrollment dates, which a sixth form presumably does. So why aren't they extending a helping hand? I don't want or need them to organise every little detail, just chuck a couple of relevant leaflets our way.

Sil was told that they were not to laud one qualification over another

Which is one reason why some schools, with an entirely spurious class chip on their shoulder, refuse to distinguish between the requirements of students applying to, or more to the point capable of applying to, different institutions. If you take it as a given that Media Studies at your local ex FE-college is equivalent to maths at Trinity Cambridge, why would you prepare people for the latter when they can just do the former?

millie you've maybe proved why I'm probably a typical grumpy old woman fixed in traditions. The young are alot smarter but not necessarily more intelligent they are able to navigate the hoops and loops to get them on to greater things. Does it matter if the degree is lesser or a rigorous one, if it gets me to where I want who cares the degree has served it's purpose.

Sorry for the grammar, typos, brain is working faster than the fingers.

Does anybody else like me thinks it's ludicrous some university allows DDE grade students on to their courses.

A standard offer from polytechnics in the early 1980s for a three year CNAA-validated BSc(Hons) or BA(Hons) was something between DD and EE.

Why would you expect a post-92 institution to be more selective today?

security that's what I mean if you didn't get the grades you went to a polytechnic. If you did better a university. A degree from uni was seen as academic a degree fromantic a poly was more vocational. Either way the degree was distinguishable in terms of its academic rigour.

Still can't write. Can see why I never attend poly or uni??

A degree from uni was seen as academic a degree fromantic a poly was more vocational.

They were still degrees, however, and there are plenty of vocational degrees in universities as well. For example, medicine, or dentistry, or architecture.

security I see your point about the professional vocational degrees eg meds, vets. But maybe I'm wrong but those types of degree weren't available at poly's. Poly's offered the other end of the spectrum of vocational degrees eg hotel and catering, leisure mnagement.

The great difficulty facing us a nation is the there are too many young people who are not properly informed of the choices available to them. It must not just be left to the student or the parents if they do not have the wherewithall to aim high. Sharp elbowed parents will ensure they know how to progress their children, whilst others just flounder and do not make the most of themselves. We need all our children to succeed at the highest level possible.

Some degrees do not serve much purpose at all and some employers do know which are the less rigorous ones. Employment does depend on a lot more than a degree, but a good degree may well get you through the door to the selection process. Some degrees from some institutions will be taken less seriously.

Therefore, the brightest among our young people should go to the best universities. I know that an ex Polytechnic University works with schools where some of my family live. My DN has no idea that the courses here are less prestigious than courses elsewhere, due to notion that every degree is good and elitism is bad, and now has a firm tie to that university. No-one is telling her that she is far too bright to go there. It has been suggested that she do nursing. She is, academically, more able and should be considering being a doctor. That would mean going to another university. The school has definitely ensured some people will go to university who otherwise might not have done so, but it is dumbing down what my DN might be able to achieve. Many schools advise with the best of intentions, but do not aim high enough for their brightest students. (PS - obviously I do applaud nurses, but some people should aim to be doctors). My family are risk averse and worry about the costs of university so they are not bothered about what she does or where she does it. They will probably leave the choice up to her, but she is not receiving the best advice possible and this is repeated all over the country as reports have shown.

Poly's offered the other end of the spectrum of vocational degrees eg hotel and catering, leisure mnagement.

Degrees such as you name didn't exist in the early 1990s when polytechnics became universities. One poly I can think of had, for example, very well regarded degrees in architecture, computer science and speech therapy, for example, which have continued to be extremely good since it became a university.

Most of the old teacher training colleges ended up as part of their local polytechnic, and many primary school teachers who qualified in, say, 1980 through to 1992 would have done so at a polytechnic; if they got a BEd it would have almost certainly been CNAA-validated.

There weren't, I think, polytechnic medicine degrees because of the requirement to have a relationship with a teaching hospital, which was pretty much the sine qua non of redbrick universities (ie, X Poly couldn't offer an MBChB, because the relationship with the local teaching hospital was already taken by X University). But pharmacy and ophthalmology were often available at polytechnics.

My family are risk averse and worry about the costs of university

One of the most scandalous things Labour did in the past five years was convince naive parents that they would have to find £27k upfront, or as near as, before their children could go to university. I know of several families that told their children to abandon all thought of going to university because they "couldn't afford to pay the fees now", even though no-one has to pay the fees and the arrangements for maintenance funding have not materially changed.

I know of several families that told their children to abandon all thought of going to university because they "couldn't afford to pay the fees now", even though no-one has to pay the fees and the arrangements for maintenance funding have not materially changed.

This. The fees are not the issue as everyone gets those as a loan regardless of background. You pay them back after uni obviously but at a really paltry rate per month and they get written off after 25 years anyway.

Where people do get screwed is on the maintenance grant/loan.

security yes they did "Huddersfield university" did courses on BA Hotel and Catering in 1989!! My then ex boyfriend went there the rat then wanted to transfer and do Travel and Tourism Degree.

What I'm saying is probably are some degrees really fit or should be labelled as a degree. And shouldn't one attain a certain level before one embarks on one. Or does the fault lie with the universities, they make it too easily accessible to attain a degree by offering them with low grade entry tariff. So we end up with E grade students getting a 1st class but would that same student, had he gone to the same course at a prestigious uni get a 1st, you see I'm not sure. They not the same.

Where people do get screwed is on the maintenance grant/loan.

But for people whose parents are on a low income, they will get a mixture of loans (repayable on the same terms as the fees loan, so zero risk if you don't get a job), non-repayable grants and (probably) university bursaries. As the repayment terms for the maintenance loan is now safer (higher threshold) how is it now worse than it was under Labour? Which parent will have to lay out a penny that they wouldn't have had to five years ago?

security

I was talking about people like my mum who earn around the 32k mark - too much to get the full loan amount for their DC, not enough to fund DC themselves.

As the repayment terms for the maintenance loan is now safer (higher threshold) how is it now worse than it was under Labour?

....I never said it was?

When I hear Milliband dancing around saying he's going to drop tuition fees, I keep shouting 'but what about living costs?'.

Everyone can get a loan for fees. But many students cannot borrow enough to actually live on!!!!

Just had a quick look and at Buckinghamshire University you can do a BA in Furniture Design. That makes sense to me - the area is historically big in furniture and it is a vocational course.

Then I had a look at Bedfordshire University and saw English Literature BA. Now, that to me is plain wrong. I don't care what merits the course may have, I have to say that I doubt whether their students should really be doing this degree at this institution and I further would bet my house on the fact that the calibre of student ain't that great.

Word - in this instance the fee reduction is more about the looming bad debt crisis relating to student loans than about helping individuals (although less debt will help individuals). It's good for the country (and the taxpayer) as a whole. That's why it's the right thing to do. It's one of those things like climate change and the black holes in pension schemes that the people who know about stuff are fully aware of but the people who do stuff (politicians) are hoping someone else will deal with this year next year sometime never...oops it's too late.

I don't think there is too much disagreement on this thread. I think we are all saying the same thing roughly. It's a shame MN can't be in charge of education policies in this country.

I've DC of varying academic abilities and have visited a wide variety of Unis from the highest tariff Unis to the lower tariff Unis. I think there are great Unis across the spectrum. I know some of the lower tariff Unis are recruiters rather than selectors but the entry requirements for some courses at the lower tariff Unis are still challenging. For example Maths at mid tariff Unis is often 320 or 300 points. (ABB-BBB).(eg, Swansea, Brunel, Coventry Keele) Ok, I know you can count other things towards your UCAS points at a few of the points Unis and I know they might be more flexible on grade slippage but they are still high'ish grades.

I know they don't compare to the Oxbridges of this world but they are not to be sniffed at either.

"Huddersfield university" did courses on BA Hotel and Catering in 1989

OK, I'll confess myself surprised it wasn't an HND. I guess by 1989 they were gearing up for the 1992 changes.

So we end up with E grade students getting a 1st class

It would be interesting to know just how many people that's true for. Firstly, because there aren't many courses with entry requirements that low: Hospitality Business Management at Huddersfield University today is BBC at A Level or (more commonly, I suspect) DMM at BTEC. The presumably similar Tourism and Travel Management at London Met in 280 UCAS points, which in A Level terms is again BBC. Could you point to the degree programmes available today to a student with EE at A Level?

There are plenty of reasons why someone might have done badly at A Level because of, say, school or parental issues, and do very well once away from that. But the drop-out rate at post-92s is savagely high, and anecdotally at least largely amongst less well qualified applicants. What are the A Level or equivalent grades of people getting firsts from Huddersfield or London Met?