Is there anything in the schools case for dd's admission appeal (hopefully a quite quick read)

[stilllearnin]

Hi. I have an appeal for my daughter's first preference school this week (she got none of her preferences). I am not sure what I expected to see but the school's case that the panel cannot admit more children does not seem very substantial.

It is very oversubscribed school, and children are admitted on appeal. But the appeal paperwork shows the school only has its PAN at each year throughout the school (so presumably people have left to even things out?). But that to me means that there is not a big overcrowding issue and weakens their side of the balancing act (or I may be getting a bit too optimistic here).

The school's case appears to be:

more pupils mean less teacher time, problems with differentiation and setting, and a squeeze on GCSE options.

the DfE want only 20 pupils per DT class and so there is a squeeze on DT spaces.

Some lessons are being taught in the wrong classrooms (ie RE in MFL classrooms)

They are 2 tech rooms short of the recommended amount and they cannot extend A level sciences due to lab space.

There is a wide range of SEN (but actually not very many pupils with a statement - 13 in total - although I do recognise there lots of children will have additional needs and no statement)

There is 90% occupancy of classrooms (I am not sure what this means - does it mean 90% of capacity or only 10% space to walk around and have furniture or resources).

I did not really intend to challenge the school's case at all. It seems fairly accepted/ obvious that admitting more pupils will put pressure on staff and resources. But there does not appear to be that much in terms of concrete grounds here?

I know we are all pretty sick of this stuff this time of year. But does anyone have any thoughts and perhaps anything I could bring up. (Presumably the panel will do most of that though). It is a mass stage one hearing and then individual stage two's if that makes any difference.

Thanks in advance of any views.

Not an expert at all but you MUST challenge the rather weak looking schools case. If you don't challenge it then in the case to admit your child the bar has to be raised that much higher. Chipping away at the school's argument means you don't have to have quite as good a case to admit.

Thanks titchy. I think I need to get into that mindset. There is a lot of pressure on this school and I almost feel guilty but they are not putting up much of a fight

A number of the schools arguments will not stand up to scrutiny, and you need to chip away at them as much as possible to weaken their case. S I suggest you start with:

a) 'squeeze on GCSE options' ask what this means in terms of numbers of pupils, and numbers for each subject? What size have their GCSE-taking year groups been in recent years, and how many pupils were denied their choice/s because of group size

b) this is desirable, not essential www.bradfordnut.org/info/health/class%20sizes%20in%20PS.htm and what size are the groups now?

c) other than not conforming to the school's naming system for classrooms, does this have any effect on delivery of lessons?

d) what happens in the sixth form isn't relevant to year 7 admissions, nor is it fair to predict a possible situation that many years ahead (ie when appellant approaches 6th form age).

I agree that this is a fairly weak case. You need to challenge it as others have suggested. Also, as it is weak, it is quite likely some appeals will be successful as in previous years. Make sure your case for your daughter to get a place is as strong as possible. If the appeal panel decide they can't admit everyone they will compare your case with other appellants to decide who gets in.

Fantastic - thank you all. Believe it or not I am reasonably good at arguing a case in my professional life but with personal stuff I am never sure how far to take it. I need to get my work head on. They cannot admit all appellants (2 weeks worth of hearings), but the figures for last two years show they have admitted quite a few (20+). I know technically this is not correct but it is almost as if the school know this.

I will polish up my case too as you suggest.

Also meditrina thanks for the link and the reminder that recommendations are not a requirement and there is a need for more detail to test how far the school is falling short of the recommendations. The school did not use the term 'squeeze' sorry - what it said was that additional pupils would impact on GCSE option choices. But all your points stand.

There is something wrong with what you have said. If you do admit 20+ on appeal for the last two years then I would be very surprised if the actual numbers are at PAN. You are saying that they have lost 20+ pupils from a heavily oversubscribed school, which just sounds very unlikely. So you need to challenge that.
As a case the school is absolutely "bog standard" there is nothing there which is not usually in every case I sit on for secondary schools.
The fact that they are admitting 20+ at appeal in each year group says to me that the panels are definitely coming up with a view that the school is only making its case not to admit when a set number of extra pupils have been admitted. My guess would be that they are deciding on what is in effect an extra teaching group in each year group. So a question that you need to ask is how many teaching groups there are. The case will probably say they have 6 or 8 pastoral groups or some similar wording, what you want them to tell you is how many teaching groups there are for english and maths and the numbers currently in the teaching groups. The probability is that if they have say 6 pastoral groups they will have 8 teaching groups varying in size from maybe 15 in the lowest attaining group to 32 to 34 in the top attaining group.
90% capacity means that the rooms are being used 90% of the time on average, though obviously rooms like the labs where there is more pressure should be at 100% capacity.
You do need to attack the first stage school's case because that will determine the number of extra pupils can be admitted by the panel.

Thanks admission. I'm in a rush at the moment but I'll think about it properly later. But yes I was gobsmacked and read it several times. All the years are bang on PAN- how can that be?? I think there is a fair amount of flux as it is trading on its former reputation when it was practically selecting on some unfathomable points system - now its fair allocation (random from ability bands- think you'll know what I mean). It's oversubscribed by 2.5 x the pan this year. I am sure it admitted around 20 at stage 1 two years ago but I'll check that again. I expected to see they were well over PAN having admitted special cases year on year and absolutely bursting at the seams. It does look like they're expecting another teaching group if that's what you're saying. Sorry if Ive misunderstood - need to dash but thanks again.

It is not as oversubscribed as you might think. The admission application form will ask for 3 or more preferences. Whilst not all fill in all three preferences assuming the theoretical case where everybody chose the three nearest schools and the number of available places equaled the number of applicants then you would expect the number of applicants to be 3 times the PAN. To therefore be 2.5 X the PAN would say it was a popular school but not massively popular.
There is no way that the vast majority of schools are bang in their PAN across all year groups - its possible but unlikely, so I think that is a mistake on the data side.
If it is random allocation then that is always "fun". First question is how did they decide the groups the applicants were put in. How can they confirm that the random allocation was done correctly - they should have had an independent assessor there to supervise. What was the mechanism used to make the random allocation.Often it is a computer program, so can they show that your child was actually in the computer list that was used to make the random allocations. It is also worth asking whether there has been any movement since the first allocation on 1st March. Because if there has then they should have had further random draws each time a place became available - not just used the random allocation list that was first drawn up.

Thank you. Oh yes, I see what you mean about how oversubscribed it is or not. There is very little choice around here I suppose. So it is known as being hard to get into. I could have got her in under the unfair system but I did not agree with it and random allocation is fair in this case.

I think you are right about dodgy data though. I will read it all again and make sure I am not misreading. I have the stats for 2013/14 appeals - I was slightly out but 15 at stage one and 5 at stage two - out of 50 appeals. So where are those extras now? I'll have another look.

The school info says further allocations are done by further random draws but it is worth asking - and checking she was on the list! Thanks again.

Hi OP, just a word about the mass stage 1 part. Don't let yourself get pushed aside! I am quite a shy person and I went into our stage 1 bit being very polite and with a I hope you don't mind me asking attitude. There were lots of other families there who didn't say much and I felt embarrassed at hogging the questions and the Panel Chair was clearly wanting to move things on so I felt I had to stop questioning. Fast forward to the individual stage 2 and the school rep was brutal! She was so rude (to the point where I thought of complaining) - she interrupted us, was sarcastic, accused us of lying etc. Had I known what it would be like I'd have been far less of a pushover at the stage 1 part! I don't say this to worry you - I'm sure that almost every other school rep on a panel is a perfectly nice human being. Just a warning not to get trodden on like I did :) Good luck! (p.s. we won so it doesn't mean that confident, argumentative school reps automatically win :) )

Congrats LucasNorth for wining your appeal and thank you for the advice. Is there any chance you can share your experience in stage 2 with us. Like what questions did the panel ask you, the Rep etc I have my appeal hearing in just under 3 weeks and I am really nervous.

Naynay, hope I haven't scared you - FWIW, my experience isn't typical, as far as I understand! The panel were very nice indeed and tried to keep a lid on the 'bullying' from the school rep. The panel are there to be impartial so it's far from feeling like you're being 'ganged up on'!

It's hard to give advice about what questions they asked as they were so specific to our case and probably wouldn't be relevant to you. But basically the panel were asking us to prove what we were saying and the school were trying to pick holes in our case. So as long as you have watertight evidence I'm sure you'll be fine. People will ask you why your allocated school can't provide whatever it is you need from this school so you need to have done your research there too (ie. you may well be able to prove that your child needs your preferred school but you also need to prove that your allocated school can't also offer it).

One thing that helped me was to know that my written submission was just as important as what I said during the hearing. I get quite flustered and panicky in situations like the hearing but knowing that I had a very good case on paper really helped and the hearing was just to test that out.

Please note that I'm just a parent and not an expert on appeals at all though! :)

Thank you Lucas. I am almost the opposite. I would not be put off by a bullying rep as I have a fair bit of court room experience. I would be super professional and direct. The problem is that I would feel I am taking over the stage 1. I just need to forget that - the testing of the school's case is in everyone's interest. But how on earth are they going to manage it with so many people? (poss around 50 appellants)

I am a bit worried about my evidence for stage 2. I did not submit enough but there is a limit to what you can take on the day. The only thing is that I can take paper work to answer any questions that will take seconds to look at. It's just whether they will let me go over their 1 additional page limit to back up what I am saying.

That's great that you'll be super-confident, stilllearnin! Don't worry about taking over - I would think that most other appellants won't actually have much to say (nobody else said a word at my hearing) so it's not like you'll be taking up their time.

As for stage 2, somebody more knowledgable can correct me if necessary but I think you should have already submitted everything that's relevant to your case? I don't think you should be bringing new evidence on the day. I'm fairly sure you can still submit evidence now, you'll probably just need to send a few copies (it should tell you all this on your letter).

Oh I will look at the Code. You had 10 days to submit evidence here from when you first submit your appeal and you can take 1 additional page on the day which I have from a counsellor. But I want to cover all questions and things that I take for granted - such as dd having changed her name due to bullying - I have not fully evidenced.

there is no such thing as a one page limit. Quite frankly if that was properly adhered to, then that would be cause for a submission to the Local government ombudsman as the whole premise is that both the appellant and the person representing the school are allowed to submit anything they wish to.
Submitting new evidence on the day is fraught with danger. It is up to the Chair of the panel to decide whether to allow new submissions either written or verbal. In many cases they would be sympathetic to the parent in allowing it but if it is a substantial change to the appeal documentation there is a possibility that they would call either a temporary or longer adjournment to allow the school to consider the implications of the new information.
If you want to submit new evidence then you should submit it now, so it can go to all parties before the appeal. If they start saying that you cannot submit more info or that you have exceeded the one page then I would ask them to put that in writing to you. Then when you have it I would phone the LGO!
In terms of how appeals go, I would say that the schools rep would expect to get a grilling off the panel at stage 1 and that can sometimes raise a concern in the appellants mind about what is coming their way.But most panels are very careful to be gentle with the appellant and I would certainly as Chair, bounce on the schools rep if they started being rude or worse.

Thank you admission. The one page limit is only for evidence submitted on the day and we have had fair warning. But yes, it is about justice being seen to be done. The panel do need to show they have taken everything into account. I would not want to submit reams on the day in case the panel cannot assimilate it all (or I annoy them). But what I have in mind is more, in case they question what I am telling them eg the name change (which has relevance to my already submitted case). Rather than whole new grounds. It is the work of seconds to look that over, although I realise I am one of many. I'll look at the code too and then submit it in advance of stage two, plus take it on the day. I think it would be reasonable for the chair to allow it.

I am typing up my stage 1 questions in order of importance now ready for tomorrow. stage 2 is next week.

The only plan B is home ed and wait on the lists so I want to give it my best shot!

Lucas despite my experience I am rubbish at personal matters! (hence the not quite having my evidence in order).

Oh I checked the current pupil numbers again - bang on PAN in every year! How odd. Maybe there will be an explanation or revision tomorrow!

If you have all your evidence ready do submit it before stage 2. If the chair decides that there is not time for the panel to read it through if it is presented on the day, then the appeal would probably have to be adjourned to another date.

and we don't want that! I'll submit it. To be honest the admin has been a bit patchy. I think I may have made friends with the clerk due to numerous errors and my little phone calls - eg I don't know if you have already realised but the dates of the hearings don't make sense, or you haven't put everything in my appeal pack! We've managed to have quite a laugh along the way. So I will submit it and then take it with me in case the clerk does not pass it on. Thanks.

We had a group stage 1 which was awful, but we had to submit any additional evidence before stage 2, not on the day.

don't belittle their arguments. The cannot breach the H and S rules about capacity, and it sounds like they ARE full

HSMMaCM any chance you can share your experience with us. I have my appeal in just under 3 weeks time. I have been informed there is over 100+ appeals for this school. However no mention on it being a group stage 1. Any experiences that can be shared here will be really helpful for my confidence and what to expect.

The group stage 1 was really just crowd control with some people asking sensible questions, some asking ridiculous ones and some staying silent. Stage 2 was all about why this was the only school for my child. I failed at appeal for that school, but got into another at a much more civilised appeal, where 6 of us went to stage 1 and then went for coffee while we had our individual interviews.

Just prepare yourself with information about why this is the only school for your child, based on the school and what it offers (not your working hours, commute, etc).

The school we got into was outside our catchment, but far better for DD than the catchment school we failed to get into.

My brother got his son in on appeal to a school which was the only one to ofer triple science (for example).

Charis luckily belittling isn't my style I am not sure if you have any experience but the school being full is not the issue really -or at least its not as simple as that - or there would not be any appeals, would there?

Yes crowd control is what I was imagining, hence I have only just started looking at the school case now.