Is there anything in the schools case for dd's admission appeal (hopefully a quite quick read)

[stilllearnin]

Hi. I have an appeal for my daughter's first preference school this week (she got none of her preferences). I am not sure what I expected to see but the school's case that the panel cannot admit more children does not seem very substantial.

It is very oversubscribed school, and children are admitted on appeal. But the appeal paperwork shows the school only has its PAN at each year throughout the school (so presumably people have left to even things out?). But that to me means that there is not a big overcrowding issue and weakens their side of the balancing act (or I may be getting a bit too optimistic here).

The school's case appears to be:

more pupils mean less teacher time, problems with differentiation and setting, and a squeeze on GCSE options.

the DfE want only 20 pupils per DT class and so there is a squeeze on DT spaces.

Some lessons are being taught in the wrong classrooms (ie RE in MFL classrooms)

They are 2 tech rooms short of the recommended amount and they cannot extend A level sciences due to lab space.

There is a wide range of SEN (but actually not very many pupils with a statement - 13 in total - although I do recognise there lots of children will have additional needs and no statement)

There is 90% occupancy of classrooms (I am not sure what this means - does it mean 90% of capacity or only 10% space to walk around and have furniture or resources).

I did not really intend to challenge the school's case at all. It seems fairly accepted/ obvious that admitting more pupils will put pressure on staff and resources. But there does not appear to be that much in terms of concrete grounds here?

I know we are all pretty sick of this stuff this time of year. But does anyone have any thoughts and perhaps anything I could bring up. (Presumably the panel will do most of that though). It is a mass stage one hearing and then individual stage two's if that makes any difference.

Thanks in advance of any views.

stilllearnin - yes, decades of experience, and the school being full does seem to be the issue, the only criteria that will get your Dc into a full school are if they have a statement specifying that school, very rare, or if they are LAC. Otherwise, the number of students that can be allowed into a Dt or science class is limited by law, LA and statemented children will receive massive additional funding to increase staffing, to make it possible to vary the time table slightly to get round that.

You may not mean to sound belittling, but you are calling their arguments "weak" when they are not, they are quite conclusive. 90% occupancy of classrooms, for example, is over capacity in science, and most SEN children thee does are not statemented.

Don't be ridiculous charis - if that was the case no one would ever win an appeal.

The school will say it's full, but the appeal panel actually makes the decision as to whether that is actually true.

I assume you don't sit on appeal panels......

Well my dc does not have a statement and not LAC so maybe I'll cancel my leave and go into work instead.

I did not say the school case was weak.

Where do I find the law on limits in science and tech please? The school says its guidance not law.

I assume you don't sit on appeal panels...... yes, have done many times, but not in the last couple of years.

any teacher colluding with breaking that "guidance" would lose any union protection. It is illegal to ask a teacher to do it.

Oh god off on that one again.

No one is talking about teachers breaking the law. Just whether a school can cope with an extra kid. They usually can despite being at PAN. The appeal panel makes the decision in any case.

I'm finding it difficult to believe you were an impartial panel member tbh.

well, I was a teacher in a different school, so I knew what was reasonable, and what was not, which some appeal panel members didn't really.

And yes you are talking about expecting staff to break the rules, to which their correct response would be to withdraw from the class room and call for immediate union assistance.

Oh dear Chris, its a good job you are havent paneled any appeals for a while because from what iv read, it's hard to believe that you would be impartial in your approach to an appeal for a oversubscribed school. Yes you are a teacher, but the panel ultimately decides if the prejudice caused to a child from not being admitted to an oversubscribed school out weighs the prejudice that would be caused to the school/efficient use of resources etc...in line with the admissions code 2012

Sorry Charis I seem to have touched a nerve. I think what titchy is saying is that the panel makes the decision so I am not really asking a teacher to break a rule. I was just wondering what the law was so that I had a rough idea what I was asking about. As I see it, I am only asking questions at stage one. It is for the panel to draw a conclusion. I get to put my case, at it were, at stage two.

There has been quite a lot of changes to panels' work with the current code. It is a lot more prescriptive (see the 'must' written in bold everywhere!). I still cannot see where I said the case was weak. But not to worry, I think I get your drift.

I shall report back on stage one for the pp who has one coming up - in case it helps at all.

Just a heads up the DFE say it's max of 35 in any class. Not subject specific.

I know plenty of people who are on panels, I don't think anything has changed since I last did.

the trouble is a lot of people who make these appeals just have no idea of what actually goes on in a school, how it is run, what the restrictions are, what staff can and cannot be asked to do, etc.

Cheers Panda. That is useful.

Sooty caught post too soon.

That's what I have to work with each academic year anyway. ( The guidelines I mean).

Just a heads up the DFE say it's max of 35 in any class. Not subject specific

er wrong!

and exactly my previous point.

wrong on so many levels I really can't be bothered.

Good night.

Charis. I see. sorry. Well, I do think you have to understand that appellant parents are just asking. It is the panel that you are cross with for not understanding I think. I will see how it goes. I do not hold out much hope but I do have to try. The appeal is a legal right and as such it is open to me to use it.

Good night. I was only asking for views and I have taken your comments on board. Thanks

the trouble is a lot of people who make these appeals just have no idea of what actually goes on in a school, how it is run, what the restrictions are, what staff can and cannot be asked to do, etc.

It doesn't really matter whether parents understand that or not though. That is why the panel is there - to decide who will 'come off worst', as it were, the school or the child.

Stilllearnin, hope it goes well for you I know exactly how you feel. Keep us informed. Good luck

yes, have done many times, but not in the last couple of years

If that is true I am disappointed at your lack of knowledge. This is a fairly standard case from the school and is definitely not good enough to justify rejection of all appeals. If they were well over net capacity, for example, it would be a strong case but simply being full to PAN is not enough to prevent the appeal panel admitting further pupils other than in infant class size cases. But the case actually being put does not justify the view that the prejudice to the school from being asked to accept additional pupils is so extreme that none can be allowed. Given this case I am not surprised by the OP's statement that there are successful appeals most years.

the number of students that can be allowed into a Dt or science class is limited by law

Rubbish. There is a long standing convention that class sizes in practical lessons should not exceed 20 but it has no basis in law. Contrary to your statement it is not in any way illegal to ask a teacher to breach this limit.

If you were an appeal panellist as you claim I can only conclude that the training you received was seriously deficient to the point where, had appellants discovered the deficiencies, the decisions of any appeal panel in which you were involved may have been open to challenge on the basis of failure to act independently.

I think Charis was trained by the Union! Thank goodness most appeal panels have better trained people on board!

I used to give evidence for my LA. I found the appeal panels were scrupulously fair, made people feel that they listened to all the evidence (even when it was very iffy) and made well informed, justifiabe, decisions. Lots went against us (the LA) - but not all. If anything, the appeal panel bent over backwards for the appellants.

I am afraid that Charis1 is putting forward views that are quite common within the teaching community, that what is required is smaller classrooms, smaller classes etc and no extra pupils.
No one who sits on appeal panels, that I know, underestimates the difficulty of teaching any class of any size. The panel is independent but still has on it one member who is deemed to be the education member of the panel and has either current or recently past experience of schools. The decisions made are about a balance and that is why there are 3 minimum on the panel, so that there can be a difference of opinion over the outcome of the appeal. In the vast majority of cases that I have sat on, the outcome has been unanimous but sometimes there is a split vote when you get to those cases which can go either way under the balancing act.
All I would say to all parents is to believe in the impartiality and fairness of the panel to make the best decision possible in the circumstances of the case and the school, even if the answer is not the one that you would like.

Hello. Well, I can say that the Panel was very fair in allowing parents speak. Also they did question the school case a lot. They had no problem with parents asking more than one question and checked several times that these were answered. Overall it felt fair and not intimidating - but my advice is make sure your questions are answered properly.

I do wish we had been more tenacious to be honest as there was little more detail from the school. They find that 27 to a class that is big enough for 30 is ok because they think it is better for the children. It probably is, but it is a bit galling for the appellants. Another parent brought up that if they had to stick to the net capacity calculator the PAN would increase by another 118 children each year!! The response was that we are an academy and so that does not apply.

So the panel decided that it could admit another 8 before prejudice occurs. We thought that was a bit low really. but better than nothing. There are 42 of us so still not a great chance.

One blooper, the school rep left with the panel as it went to consider its decision. I said to the clerk at the time - that looks bad, they are supposed to be separate. But she said they are going to separate places. Seeing as we had all had different details of today (times, dates, and even the school we were appealing to!), I admire her optimism.

Oh, all in all it took over 2 hours. In case anyone is looking at parking and other arrangements.

Just for clarity, that decision from the panel means they have to admit at least 8 appellants. It does not mean they will only admit 8. They could choose to admit more.

The school's representative should not be alone with the panel at any point, so leaving with the panel is definitely wrong.

Thanks ph I understood that but there is so much misinformation around that there can never be too much clarity

I think the panel was on the ball so I am not properly worried about the rep leaving with the panel. But it is grounds to complain I know and I admit it narked me that the clerk could be so relaxed about it. A couple of parents were on their feet after I brought it to her attention. People were not happy with the decision, imagine if someone wanted to claim collusion!

Given that there 42 appellants it is not a surprise that at the end of the part 1 session that it would be the panel that would withdraw to another room.
However the clerk should have not allowed the school's rep to leave at the same time, they should have stayed with the parents until the panel had properly left the room.
Not a critical mistake but as usual it is not what actually happened but what could be construed to have happened that is all important.
The comment about the academy not having to abide by the net capacity calculator I would definitely have challenged.
Did you resolve the question of exactly how many were in each year group?